Hey Bretman

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saw this on another forum and the answer that was given had no reference so I thought that I would ask you.

Runner on third, none or one out. Batter hits a fly ball to the outfield. Before the ball is touched by an outfielder, the runner on 3rd base goes 10 feet down the foul line toward the outfield, then starts running back toward third base at full speed, touching 3rd base as the outfielder catches the ball and she continues on toward home. No play is made at the plate.

Is this a legal play by the runner?

 

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Wow, never would have thought of that. Talk about getting a good jump on the ball.

 

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Illegal play by the runner. Don't have rulebook with me, but I know there is a specific provision for this.

 

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I am wondering what rule is broken.

Obviously there are a couple of rules in play.

#1- a runner can not run the bases in reverse

#2 - a runner can not be more that 3 feet out of base path

So I am thinking what if they are only 3 feet behind the bag?

It is an interesting idea.

 

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This is illegal.The runner is out, but the ball remains live for further play.

The ASA rule is 8-7-V which reads:

The runner is out...When a runner is positioned behind and not in contact with a base to get a running start on any fly ball.

The high school rule is 8-6-23. Most every baseball and softball rule set I'm aware of has a rule to address this. And the rule is aimed at preventing exactly the type of baserunning described in the first post- getting a running start to time the touch of the base with a catch.

I have never personally seen this happen in a game and never had to make this call. But I do recall a couple of instances where this rule was misinterpteted by an umpire.

Runners were taking a normal rocker start with the pitch, starting from behind the base, but in contact with it. The umpire told them that they could not start out "behind the base", an obvious misinterpretation of this obscure rule.

 

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You are a machine.

 

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Excellent Bretman. Thanks. The other forum only stated that it was illegal but didn't give a reference and being a rule guy, I kinda like to know where the guy got his answer.

As we used to say, I want to hear book, chapter, and verse.

Thanks.

 

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Who even thinks this S%$%^ up to even want to try that?? That was a good one Bill!

 

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I was thinking it was a Canadian Football twist to softball. (for those unfamiliar to Canadian Football, receivers are allowed to run toward the line of scrimmage before the ball is snapped)

 

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The play I've always thought about and never done is this: 7th inning and my team is on defense and the other team has the winning or maybe tying run on base. Our pitcher goes through her normal windup and just as her pitching arm comes down, she slows it down considerably. I'm guessing the runner will probably leave way early. I think that's legal for the pitcher, but not sure. I wonder whether umps would call the out or just simply not give it to you.

 

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That's legal. Just a different sort of change up. The one I like is where the pitcher is in her wind up and the FIRST time she comes forward with the arm.. she releases the ball and then continues her arm in the circular motion but when she is coming forward the second time... she stops her arm on her rear.

I have seen bases loaded and tying run on third and winning runner on second and their Number #4 batter up to bat with two strikes and this pitch be used to throw a strike and win the tournament !!!!!

It's a great pitch and what Number #4 batter is looking for the ball to be released on the first arm swing forward? AND totally legal as long as pitcher does not come past her hip without the ball. That's why most pitchers that use this pitch.. slaps their throwing hand on their rear so the umpires is not confused.

 

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But, Tim....

The requirement for how many times the arm can "pass the hip" was dropped about a decade ago!

The current ASA rule reads : "The pitcher must not make another revolution after releasing the ball". Stopping just shy of 360 degrees is cutting it close. This could very well be interpreted as one revolution- even if the arm does stop at about 5 degrees short of a full circle.

The high school rule is even more restrictive. It prohibits rotating the arm past the shoulder once the ball is released. This would definitely be an illegal pitch under current high school rules!

 

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With all due respect, Bretman is correct. The rule prohibits deception by the pitcher, yet JoeA's scenario would be legal if the umpires were alert enough to catch it.

 

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But, Tim....

The requirement for how many times the arm can "pass the hip" was dropped about a decade ago!

The current ASA rule reads : "The pitcher must not make another revolution after releasing the ball". Stopping just shy of 360 degrees is cutting it close. This could very well be interpreted as one revolution- even if the arm does stop at about 5 degrees short of a full circle.

The high school rule is even more restrictive. It prohibits rotating the arm past the shoulder once the ball is released. This would definitely be an illegal pitch under current high school rules!

After she releases the ball.. and she continues forward, then up and around then starting to come back forward... she stops her hand BEFORE she comes past her shoulder ( as her hand stops on her rear).. then she did not go past her shoulder with her hand.

It's a legal pitch... I'm telling ya. It was discussed at Beckham's event in Columbus last Fall ( ASA) BEFORE it was going to happen with the UIC who happened to be a District Director as well.

As long as she doesn't go PAST her shoulder a second time... it is completely legal. She's NOT making that second full revolution of her arm. She is making a 359 degrees... cutting it close.. but this is why the pitcher is instructed to slap herself to give umpires the notice that the hand did not past the shoulder.

 

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I'll have to take your word for it since I wasn't in on that coversation. But I'm not sure why an ASA Umpire-in-Chief would say this has anything to do with "going past the shoulder" because the ASA rule doesn't mention anything about the shoulder being used as a reference point for determining another revolution.

The high school rule does mention the shoulder. Once the ball leaves the hand, "past the shoulder" is interpreted as past the 12:00 (straight up and down) position. This would definitely be an illegal pitch under high school rules.