HS umpires - this really happened!

[DanMaz]

so we are in the first inning of a home game. I will set up the situation... please tell me what the call should be.

1st batter gets walked. on 1st base.
2nd batter attempts to bunt... fouls it off and it looks like she was hit by the ball out of the box --- umps calls foul. home books have it as a foulball. Same batter continues batting with the same count... bunts and on a wild throw makes it safe on 1st base.
now we have runners on 1 and 2
next batter sac bunts and moves runners to 2nd and 3rd. - 1 out
next batter ends up grounding out and the runner on 3rd scores.... 2 outs right???

HOLD ON!!!! HOLD ON!!! --- now the other coach from visitor team claims that runner on 2nd was called out when she was hit by the ball out of the box during a bunt attempt. so it should be 3 outs now they claim. this is after the run scores and after the 2nd out... so, two batter after she "was hit by her bunt attempt" they want clarification and now there is a big meeting.... one ump claims that now that batter who was supposedly out on the bunt attempt would be batting out of order....

I am confused here. Can you call batting out of order two batters after batting out of order? nobody seemed to know what the rule should be.
If the batter was actually called out on the bunt attempt BUT she continues to bat and nobody catches it or she is batting because it wasnt clearly called an out but a foul.... can they change their calls 2 batter and 2 outs later?

SO>>>>>>>>>>>> the conclusion was the 2nd batter thats was "hit by her bunt attempt" was now called out and now the run was taken off the board because she scored on now what was the 3rd out not the 2nd out........

Brent man?? did they make the right call?

 

[backstop09]

...Can you call batting out of order two batters after batting out of order?...

No. Sounds like it was a real mess and the visiting team coaches must have been pretty persuasive. It doesn't sound as though there was an improper batter, but even if there was -

NFHS Rule 7-2-3
When an improper batter becomes a runner or is put out and a legal or illegal pitch has been delivered to the succeeding batter………..before an appeal is made, the improper batter becomes the proper batter and the results of her time at bat become legal.

 

[hpifm]

Backstop09 is correct. You can't appeal a play well after the fact and reverse a play. Once the situation was complete and the next batter was pitched to everything else is mute.

 

[17smom]

Well, actually, the home ump did not call it a foul ball when the 2nd batter hit it - he very loudly yelled out and pointed at the ground in fair territory with one hand and held up his other hand in an out signal. After the other scenarios happened, he said he had 3 outs at the same time the visiting team's coach came out of the dugout because she also thought it was 3 outs. He then said that the batter was out and he didn't realize that the same batter went up to bat and apparently neither did anyone else.

Prior to the conference going more private further out in the field (and I have no idea what was said then), he said that even if she batted again out of order and nobody caught that, her initial out for being hit by the ball out of the box still does not go away. The additional out of batting out of order wouldn't count because we didn't catch that, but the initial out still counts - which would make it 3 outs after the other scenarios happened.

Admittedly, whether or not that initial bunt still counts as an out or not, I do not know. But he DID actually say out (not foul) and hold up his hand on it.

 

[Comp]

When you say she was supposedly called out on the bunt attempt, did she make contact with the ball with a foot out of the batters box or was she hit by the bunted ball while out of the batters box?

If the umpire called the batter out Im not sure why it wouldnt have been obvious to all the participants and why they would have allowed the batter to just step back in and continue the at bat with the current count. Sounds like an all around cluster on all parts.

 

[BretMan2]

How do you call a batter out, just a few feet from the plate (hit by bunted ball), then not realize that the same batter didn't walk off the field, and instead got right back into the batter's box? And how do you call a player out so weakly that apparently the player, her coach, and most everybody else watching didn't even realize that she was called out?

Come on, high school umpires...be awake out there! This is just plain sloppy mechanics and game management and that usually will lead to troubles...

Batting out of order: Doesn't apply here. It's too late to appeal since pitches have been thrown to subsequent batters. The defense missed their opportunity for a BOO appeal several batter's ago. Shame on the umpire for suggesting this was even a possibility!

If they really did call out the batter who was hit by her own bunt, then what seemed to be the second out was really the third out. If there really were three outs, then you would have to go back and wipe out anything that happened after out number three. Failure to do that would be giving one team a tremendous advantage not intended by the rules- four outs in an inning! And by the same token it would be a tremendous disadvantage to the defensive team.

Wiping everything out that happened after the third out is the most fair and equitable solution to both teams. It best replicates what would have really happened had everyone realized the bunting batter had been called out. That should always be the goal when making these kinds of adjustments or corrections- to set things exactly as they would have been had it been handled correctly the first time.

But an even better goal for umpires is to do things the right way to begin with, then you won't need to be making adjustments to cover your sloppy umpiring!

 

[17smom]

When you say she was supposedly called out on the bunt attempt, did she make contact with the ball with a foot out of the batters box or was she hit by the bunted ball while out of the batters box?

If the umpire called the batter out Im not sure why it wouldnt have been obvious to all the participants and why they would have allowed the batter to just step back in and continue the at bat with the current count. Sounds like an all around cluster on all parts.

She did bunt the ball and it hit her while out of the batters box. The bunter/runner ran to first and then came back and then she was handed her her bat - I think by the ondeck batter, but I could be wrong. I think that is where the confusion happened and the ump, nor our side saw that it was actually the same batter and not the ondeck batter that got back in the box. To say she went back in with the same count - well, in the home book it probably was because they didn't have her as an out. In our book, it was a new batter with a new count - I don't know what the umpire thought the count was, but since he says he thought it was a new batter I'm assuming he had no count and since the girl successfully bunted next, nobody would have caught that the counts didn't match. Why we didn't catch that it was a different number, I don't know - but I'm just glad I wasn't keeping the book!

 

[BretMan2]

Well, actually, the home ump did not call it a foul ball when the 2nd batter hit it - he very loudly yelled out and pointed at the ground in fair territory with one hand and held up his other hand in an out signal. After the other scenarios happened, he said he had 3 outs at the same time the visiting team's coach came out of the dugout because she also thought it was 3 outs. He then said that the batter was out and he didn't realize that the same batter went up to bat and apparently neither did anyone else.

Prior to the conference going more private further out in the field (and I have no idea what was said then), he said that even if she batted again out of order and nobody caught that, her initial out for being hit by the ball out of the box still does not go away. The additional out of batting out of order wouldn't count because we didn't catch that, but the initial out still counts - which would make it 3 outs after the other scenarios happened.

Admittedly, whether or not that initial bunt still counts as an out or not, I do not know. But he DID actually say out (not foul) and hold up his hand on it.

Again, it never ceases to amaze me that two different people can watch the same plays and come away with two completely different descriptions of what happened!

If this was the case, then I might have been too rough on these umpires. It's still bad that they let a retired batter come back to the plate (pay attention out there!). But the rest of the explanations in this post pretty much match exactly what I posted above about how I would handle this. So I would actually approve of how the umpires handled this, even though some of the confusion was of their own making.

 

[DanMaz]

Well, actually, the home ump did not call it a foul ball when the 2nd batter hit it - he very loudly yelled out and pointed at the ground in fair territory with one hand and held up his other hand in an out signal. After the other scenarios happened, he said he had 3 outs at the same time the visiting team's coach came out of the dugout because she also thought it was 3 outs. He then said that the batter was out and he didn't realize that the same batter went up to bat and apparently neither did anyone else.

Prior to the conference going more private further out in the field (and I have no idea what was said then), he said that even if she batted again out of order and nobody caught that, her initial out for being hit by the ball out of the box still does not go away. The additional out of batting out of order wouldn't count because we didn't catch that, but the initial out still counts - which would make it 3 outs after the other scenarios happened.

Admittedly, whether or not that initial bunt still counts as an out or not, I do not know. But he DID actually say out (not foul) and hold up his hand on it.

LOL !!! my GOPRO doesnt lie... he never called her out. held his hand up stating foul ball and we all watched her get back in the batters box waiting for the next pitch and nobody said a word -- not you or anyone from the coaching staff or fans or umps.... nobody. meaning to me that it was a foul ball for sure. She started with the same count too. They blew the call big time took a run off the board and if she was called out originally and scored it that way our next batter would not have SAC bunted to move runners. it would have changed a lot of things for sure including momentum. It was a real good game though and went 10 innings so this was not a good way to start it for us anyways...

just too bad the umps didn't get it right because that run he took off the board would have gave us the win 3-2 in the 7th and would not have gone into extra innings like it did! we ended up losing by 2 and thats the worst part of it all!!! but i didn't post this to argue with whoever you are... just wanted to know what the real call should have been and what these great folks on OFC thought about the call.

OH - wouldn't you, your coach, your fans, players or someone say something if the ump clearly called "OUT!" but the batter was still batting? lol I know our fans and coaches sure would!! lol thanks for the input.

 

[17smom]

Dan - not going to argue about it - I just concede that we saw/heard different things. I don't know where your GoPro was, but I know that you were directly behind the backstop for most of the game, which depending on the angle may have either the best view or an obstructed view once players and umps were moving around. I honestly believe that the ump said out and pointed to the ground with one of his hands - as did other fans I was sitting with. I have no reason to get on here and say anything other than what I honestly believe I saw happen (just as you believe what you saw) - you can look at my previous posts and see that is not what I am about.

As I said in a post above - your girl ran to first (maybe not all the way, but definitely down the line fairly far) and then ran back. It wasn't like she was two feet out of the box, turned around, and stepped back right back in. I think that is where the ump and coaches got mixed up on who was batting - certainly not making excuses because we definitely should have caught it at the time. And I did have a long discussion with my DD about it - because she also said she heard the ump call the girl out, but she did not realize that it was the same girl hitting again. As catcher, that is a big part of her responsibility and she needed to see that and question it immediately. Oh well, lesson learned on her part.

Regardless, it was a good game that went 10 innings and I wish you guys the best for the remainder of the season.

 

[Stupid Jim]

Lets put an end to it - post the go-pro footage

 

[backstop09]

OK - something doesn't seem quite right. I have been around softball for a fair number of years. Not one time EVER have I heard an umpire just stick his hand up and say "out" when a ball hits a batter/runner outside of the batter's box. It is ALWAYS loud and forcefully "She's out, it hit her outside of the box" or something to that effect while pointing at the foot mark in the dirt where she was when it hit her. I don't have a dog in this fight and don't even know the teams that were playing but it sounds to me for some reason like he did say "foul" and for some reason later in that inning allowed himself to get bullied by the visiting coaches into changing his mind and saying that he had previously said "out" and not "foul". If he had REALLY said "out" because it hit the batter/runner outside of the batter's box, everyone including the players, coaches, and fans would have known it.

 

[mogsoftball]

Dan I am assuming your gopro was mounted behind home plate. Cut out the entire at bat in question and post it. I would think that would give a much better idea of what happened than relying on memory from either side.

regardless it sound slike the umps didn'y do a very good job in the whole ordeal.

 

[FastBat]

And how do you call a player out so weakly that apparently the player, her coach, and most everybody else watching didn't even realize that she was called out?

I see this a lot. Especially at the younger ages and usually on the bases. The runner is called out and they will just stay on the base, then someone will point it out to the ump and the ump will tell them again.