Learned something

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Was at an 11U game and had something happen that I did not realize was a rule.


Team ends up with 2 girls touching the same base at the same time. Lead runner is automatically out. No tag needed.

 

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Really??! You sure blue didn't blow the call? Where is Bretman when you need him? I tell my girls to tag them both and let blue decide. Kinda like paintball: paint them all and let the refs decide! ;-)

 

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Maybe it's just baseball, but I always thought that a tag needs to be applied to at least one of the runners. If the trailing runner is forced to the base, then the lead runner must advance and can be tagged out. If the trailing runner is not forced to the base, then the trailing runner must retreat or be tagged out.

 

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There are a couple rules that touch on that.

Section 7 D of Batter-runners/runners, the runner is out: When a runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has been called out. If this was the 3rd out of the inning, any runs scored prior to the out for passing the proceding runner count. Effect: The ball is live and the runner who passes the proceding runner is out.

Section 7 N of Batter-runners/runners, the runner is out: When members of the offensive team stand or collect around a base to which a runner is advancing, confusing the fielders and adding to the difficulty of making the play. Effect: The ball is dead. The runner closest to home is out. Runners not out must return to the last base touched at the time of the interference.

Sounds like Blue used the second rule.

 

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I just looked up http://www.azsoftball.org/misc/2006/Misc/05.softball.umpire.rulebook.pdf rule 8.3.E

Which says:

Two runners may not occupy the same base simultaneously.
EFFECT: The runner who first legally occupied the base shall be entitled to it, unless forced to advance. The other runner may be put out by being touched with the ball.

 

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What was the situation?

Was it a force and the lead runner did not leave their base? If so then the lead runner is out.

 

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It was not a force. It happened on 2nd.

Girls on 1st and 3rd.

Girl hits ball through left side (in door field...small outfield). Run scores girl goes to 2nd and stops. Girl who hit ball keeps trucking to 2nd.

Our girls fumble ball in outfield but get it in to SS who then runs at 2nd.......and both girls jump on bag. We then of course throw the ball around but by then the girls is already out and we are luckily out of the inning.

Sounds like the call was correct but wrong girl was called out.

 

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In my opinion, call was wrong. Batter should be able to retreat to first unless and until she was tagged by the defense.

 

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While two runners can't legally occupy the same base, there isn't any sort of "automatic out" to be had here.

One of the runners is entitled to the base and can't be tagged out while in contact with it. The other runner is not entitled to the base and can be tagged out, even if she's touching the base. But that runner must actually be tagged to be put out!

So, which runner is entitled to the base? That depends on the situation. If the lead runner is in a force situation, then the lead runner can be tagged out. If the lead runner is not forced to advance, then the trailing runner can be tagged out.

For the play from the indoor game...the trailing runner is the one who could be tagged out. The umpire should have left the ball live and not made any ruling until the defense actually completed the play by tagging the runner.

 

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interesting......because I told this to someone else and they also thought that it was an automatic out......

It is obvious that they got this wrong. Went and read the rule and I agree that the runner needed to be tagged.

And Bretman has yet to be wrong.

Thanks

 

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Bretman ... I know the runner has to be tagged out, but what if by some crazy chance the defense didn't do anything and both girls stayed at the base, and the ball was returned to the circle. Would you allow the pitcher to pitch the ball with 2 girls on the same base?

 

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Even if play "stops" and the ball is returned to the circle, the umpire should make no call and the play is considered live until the batter returns to first, or the other runner advances to third, or the batter is tagged out.

It would be one of those plays where everybody wondered why the umpire is standing there and not making a call.

Since it is 11u, if I were the umpire, I'd probably stand off to the side so the pitcher wouldn't pitch. Then I'd probably hint to the defense that they should probably finish the play.

If the pitcher DID pitch, it should be considered nothing more than the throw moving around the infield.

I'd guess if this were non-tournament play, a little "help" from the umpire would be justified.

 

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Bretman ... I know the runner has to be tagged out, but what if by some crazy chance the defense didn't do anything and both girls stayed at the base, and the ball was returned to the circle. Would you allow the pitcher to pitch the ball with 2 girls on the same base?

I would expect the Look Back rule would come into play before a pitch could be made. The trailing runner would be out - same as if she was standing between bases.

 

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I would expect the Look Back rule would come into play before a pitch could be made.

That makes sense. Interesting take and most probably correct. I looked through the rules regarding look back and the only issue I could find was with (please forgive me as I'm finding this a fun topic for discussion):

8.7.T.2 - Once a runner stops at a base for any reason, the runner will be declared out if leaving the base.

So I wonder if technically so long as they're both standing there touching the base, the look back doesn't apply until one of them steps off? Everything I see under "look back" describes when a runner is off of a base or leaves a base. Since she is technically ON a base (albeit, not one she is entitled to), can the look back apply before she leaves it?

Would it be a stalemate? A battle of wills? Who will flinch first? A filibuster situation? Or does the pitcher just need to run over and tag her and be done with it?

 

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That makes sense. Interesting take and most probably correct. I looked through the rules regarding look back and the only issue I could find was with (please forgive me as I'm finding this a fun topic for discussion):

8.7.T.2 - Once a runner stops at a base for any reason, the runner will be declared out if leaving the base.

So I wonder if technically so long as they're both standing there touching the base, the look back doesn't apply until one of them steps off? Everything I see under "look back" describes when a runner is off of a base or leaves a base. Since she is technically ON a base (albeit, not one she is entitled to), can the look back apply before she leaves it?

Would it be a stalemate? A battle of wills? Who will flinch first? A filibuster situation? Or does the pitcher just need to run over and tag her and be done with it?

The lead runner in this case is the only one legally occupying the base, so she would be out if she leaves the base.

The trailing runner wouldn't be called out for leaving the base because she wasn't legally occupying it. Touching 2B shouldn't be a factor for her with LBR just like it doesn't protect her from being tagged out.

 

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Would it be a stalemate? A battle of wills? Who will flinch first? A filibuster situation? Or does the pitcher just need to run over and tag her and be done with it? [/QUOTE]

I can't wait to see the movie!!!

 

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Actually, whoever has the calmest parents and coaches will win this situation.

Nothing like parents yelling and screaming to confuse the kids when this happens.

 

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Lol for sure ... no way those 2 girls actually stay on the base ... parents and coaches from both teams are yelling and screaming like crazy if that happened!! Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the offense ended up scoring them both ... the one girl starts to run back to first, the defense chases her back, the lead runner takes off for 3rd and home, the defense throws the ball into the backstop, the trailing runner takes off for 2nd and 3rd, and the defense throws it down the left field line ... we've all seent it!!

 

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Spoken Like a truly well seasoned coach Jeff!

 

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Lol for sure ... no way those 2 girls actually stay on the base ... parents and coaches from both teams are yelling and screaming like crazy if that happened!! Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the offense ended up scoring them both ... the one girl starts to run back to first, the defense chases her back, the lead runner takes off for 3rd and home, the defense throws the ball into the backstop, the trailing runner takes off for 2nd and 3rd, and the defense throws it down the left field line ... we've all seent it!!

Coach, you must of seen one of my kids games when they were younger... Should of worn their wrist bands then we could of all yelled A5 then they would of known what to do.