Looking for help on call at the plate!

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We were in semi-finals in a U-16 ISA qualifier. On a play at home, our catcher went down to one knee as she received the throw from third, and the runner never reached the plate but was called safe because "the catcher cannot block the plate or any base until AFTER the ball is in the mit. Our catcher had the ball in her mit and it was sandwiched between her and the runner at impact! Was confirmed by the TD. Whats the call?

 

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If she had the ball, she can block the plate. She cannot be in the base path in anticipation of the throw, only when she has possession of the ball. If she had possession, she should have been out.

 

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runner is out

 

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We were in semi-finals in a U-16 ISA qualifier. On a play at home, our catcher went down to one knee as she received the throw from third, and the runner never reached the plate but was called safe because "the catcher cannot block the plate or any base until AFTER the ball is in the mit. Our catcher had the ball in her mit and it was sandwiched between her and the runner at impact! Was confirmed by the TD. Whats the call?

Sounds like it could of went either way, if the glove was sandwiched between the players there could of been contact somewhere before the catcher caught the ball. I would have gone with the umpire's decision. Of course he was going to be right anyway, correct?
Need instant replay in fastpitch. I see plays every weekend which could of went either way, but if the umpire is in the correct position what are you going to do.

 

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Okay...I deleted my first response because it seems that I mis-read part of the first post. Let me try that again...

Contrary to what most people think, it is NOT illegal for a fielder to block a base without the ball. A fielder can stand anywhere on the field she pleases.

Now, before anyone thinks I've totally lost it...let me explain. If the fielder does not have the ball, it is illegal for her to block the base AND impede the runner's progress. Obstruction requires BOTH elements before it can be called.

For instance...if the catcher is in the basepath, blocking the plate, that in itself is not automatically obstruction. It's entirely possible for the runner to come in and never break stride, change her path, slow down or contact the catcher. In this case, the runner has NOT been hindered or impeded and it's NOT obstruction.

It can be a fine line and a grey area to judge and the final determination is up to the umpire's judgment.

Plugging all that into the original question...did the runner have to slow down, check up, go around or otherwise alter her path to the plate BEFORE the catcher secured the ball? If so, then obstruction would be the right call. Award the runner home.

On the other hand, if the runner did not alter her path in any way, then by definition she wasn't obstructed. This would be a legal tag of the runner and she would be out.

From a practical standpoint, simply blocking a base without the ball is not illegal. Blocking the base AND actually impeding the runner is. Whenever a fielder blocks a base without the ball, it opens up the possibility that there will be an obstruction call, but it isn't automatic.

 

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Brettman I guess I dont understand. If the runner can cleanly pass then you are not blocking anything in my mind. Why add the ambiguity. In my mind you are not blocking anything unless you impeded the runner. I think maybe this needs to be a point of emphasis as I have seen teams teach blocking both home and 2nd to take advantage of the fact umpires will not make this call. I believe that not calling this even increases the likelyhood of collision and injury which is entirely avoidable.

 

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So in order to get the obstruction call runners should A. leave the base path or B. make contact?

 

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The following passage might better explain what I was saying. This comes directly from the ASA National Umpire Director and was published on the ASA website, in the "Umpire" section under "Plays and Clarifications".

There seems to be some question on the ASA obstruction rule as discussed in Rule Supplement 36. It states that "If a defensive player is blocking the base or base path without the ball, they are impeding the progress of the runner and this is obstruction." This has been interpreted by some to say that regardless of the location of the runner or runners blocking a base is obstruction. Therefore, regardless of where the runner is, for example 20 feet from the base, in ASA this is obstruction. This is a misunderstanding of the Rule Supplement. The sentence is being taken out of context and should be applied with the rest of Rule Supplement 36.

However, it is also important to remember that a Rule Supplement is not a rule but written to support the rule. Our rule clearly states that it is obstruction if there is impeding of the runner. To have obstruction while blocking a base there must be two elements involved: 1) A defensive player blocking the base or base path without possession of the ball and 2) a defensive player impeding or hindering the runner's advancing or returning to a base by the action of blocking the base.

 

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Saw this MANY times at the college level. Let's say you have a runner on second (scoring position), and the batter hits one to the left/center field gap. The runner on second is going to be busting it around third for home. Most likely her momentum will cause her natural base running path to be quite wide of the third base line as she is approaching the plate. Even if the catcher is literally sitting ON the third base line just up from home plate, the runner's base path might be nautrally AROUND the catcher. Just smart base running in case she needs to do a slide-by to tag the plate with her hand to avoid a potential tag attempt.

It is my understanding (correct me Bret if I'm wrong) that the base running path doesn't necessarily follow the base line. The base path is the natural path the runner takes, typically swinging wide when rounding a base. Just because the catcher is sitting on the base line does not mean she is obstructing - even without the ball. It depends on where the runner's path is.

 

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According to both ISA and ASA rules and your description of the play it looks like "SAFE".

First off you said "On a play at home, our catcher went down to one knee as she received the throw from third"- this indicates that she didnt have complete possession of the ball. "As she recieved the throw" means she didnt have the ball before getting down to one knee in the defensive position but got it during.

Secondly you said "the runner never reached the plate"- which means the catcher had to be in between the runner and the plate.

Again, the rules state that she must have possession of the ball prior to getting in between the runner and the base. She was already between the runner and the base without complete possession of the ball. Obstruction. Runner is safe.

Great discussion topic!:cap:

 

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On the play in question in this situation, had the runner slid feet first she probably would have made it under or around. She decided to go late and head first into a wall! Could have led to injury!

 

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To me, looks like good fundamental play by the catcher, and innefective base running by the runner. Catcher caught the ball and applied the tag, which I doubt she could have done had the collision occured FIRST. A bang-bang play, but I'd give this one to the solid catcher... OUT.

 

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To me, looks like good fundamental play by the catcher, and innefective base running by the runner. Catcher caught the ball and applied the tag, which I doubt she could have done had the collision occured FIRST. A bang-bang play, but I'd give this one to the solid catcher... OUT.

Exactly what I was gonna say. Bang bang play runner out. We teach catchers to block the plate. Run them over otherwise dont run around. I know we dont want any injuries but the plate play is a historical one and part of the game.

 

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Can't run over the catcher at home, that is malicious contact and the player/runner can be ejected from the game.

I saw way to many fielders in Lady Lasers tourney blocking the bags w/o the ball (especially 1st baseman), and coaches getting ****ed because they couldn't get the out call. Hadn't seen this blocking of bags in a long while, so apparently its on the rise again.

 

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Exactly what I was gonna say. Bang bang play runner out. We teach catchers to block the plate. Run them over otherwise dont run around. I know we dont want any injuries but the plate play is a historical one and part of the game.

It might be a historical part of professional baseball, where the rules are different than they are in amateur softball.

In the amateur game, there are really no circumstances where it is permissable for runners to purposely bulldoze a fielder into next week. Generally, purposely running over a fielder with excessive force will get you either called out or ejected.

 

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"...bulldoze a fielder into next week..."

Bret, that has to be the most descriptive phrase I've heard in a while! It sure paints the picture.

It never made any sense to me why a player would try to "go through" the catcher - usually trying to dislodge the ball. The object is to score by touching the plate while AVOIDING the tag. I remember occasionally seeing a collision at home plate in travel ball, usually because of indecisive base running. But I can't remember ever seeing one in college play. Maybe the kids eventually learn?

 

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Base/base path belongs to runner until fielder has possesion of the ball (doesn't apply to fielder attempting to field hit ball) then you have obstruction caused by runner.

Umps have been challenged with this type of call (along with alot others) all yr ie.
one of my players trying to get back on a throwdown to first was block by the first baseman (who was standing w foot on inside of bag) and was tagged, ump made the right call of SAFE due to Obstruction by the first baseman, but then blew it on a double hit by my daughter ,when the SS standing two steps infront of 2nd (on firstbase side) caused my daughter to slide way to early (like 3-4 steps) and then tug her out. My arguement " SS had no possesion of ball should not be in basepath" If SS would have been straddling bag she would have been safe.

We've been also dealing with fielders standing on bases when there are no plays being made slowing the runner down. Which has led us to tell our players to push them out of the way.... Maybe this will draw umps attention to the obstruction.

It's time for coaches to teach players the proper way of receiving the ball on tagging plays so that obstruction never comes into play. Or you could be the Coach like this example... had a parent tell me after (said game) that the
Coach told his players to stand there until Ump calls it. BUSH LEAGUE if you ask me!

Now that I had my time to vent... I would agree with the call and argue "why is the catcher in the basepath without ball?"

 

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Catcher was straddling the plate and went down on one knee for the tag. Again- with a feet first slide, runner might have reached the plate with a safe call!!!!!!!

 

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Very next inning, same play happened to our base runner, but with her called out!! Guess she should have went in head first, then screamed and yelled!!!!

 

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Can't run over the catcher at home, that is malicious contact and the player/runner can be ejected from the game.

I saw way to many fielders in Lady Lasers tourney blocking the bags w/o the ball (especially 1st baseman), and coaches getting ****ed because they couldn't get the out call. Hadn't seen this blocking of bags in a long while, so apparently its on the rise again.

I know you can't Im sorry for implying that way but bang bang plays happen and some do run into catcher.