Looking for umpire's opinions here

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Ok, I am not one to gripe a whooe lot on umpires, as I do a little myself and a lot of comlaining is about judgemtn calls and such that arguments just cant win. With that being said, I have to tell this story just to get it off my chest..

Tonight we dropped a game 8-7 in 10 innnings. The game should never have went that far and I can honestly bet a paycheck that the Home plate umpire knows this as well..Let me explain.. mid game, field umpire is in C position, between 2nd and 3rd, ball is played at third and he makes call there and then play continues with the batter going too far around first and we make a throw back to the bag. here we go. Home plate umpire is right on top of the play and begins to signal out, but stops as he shouts OU...because at the same time the field umpire from 75 ft away says safe!!

I calmly question why he allows the field ump to make this call and this is what he says " This is a new umpire that I'm not usually working with and we did not communicate where I would be on this play.... I'm sorry and it will not happen again" Are you kidding me, mean while they end up scoring 2 more runs after the Home plate umpire, who is an experienced umpire knows that call was blown!! ( that would have been last out)

Thats not the end of the story.. Bottom of 7th. We are ahead by 1.. Their leadoff hitter hits a shot donw right field line.. Good double that they are going to stretch into a triple if we do not make a perfect relay. Holy cow we do!! and ball and runner arrive at 3rd at same time. My 3rd baseman makes a tag and the field umpire yells.. Out!! much to the shagrin of the home team and espeacially the Coach. Who now starts screaming at the field umpire about obstruction!!

*This was a bang, bang play in which the 3rd baseman was on top of the bag and as she caught it she fell onto the runner. My actual opinion of the call was very happy that he called her out, it was that close. the runner did not have to alter her slide or slow down and she made it all the way to the bag.. he just called her out..*

back to the story. The home plate umpire will not even give the other coach the time of day about this.. which is good because he knows there is nothing there. Well.. now the newbie umpire begins to quiver a liitle bit because the other coach is making a stink.
So Home plate umpire will still not, correctly so, make a conference out of this. Well newbie finally decides that he better just find out what all this fuss about is, because clearly he does not know what he saw. So he calls home plate ump over for the conference. I am not worried here as I know the home plate umpire knows what obstruction is and I know this aint going anywhere..

Ok well it turns out that NEWBIE DOES NOT KNOW EXACTLY WHAT OBSTRUCTION IS???? Thats Ok I know the home plate umpire does.. So Home plate umpire gives him a crash coarse in Obstruction and guess what? You guessed it field umpire changes his own call. Of coarse he never signalld obstruction, he just now says that she is safe..

Ok now is where i come momentarliy unglued.. notice I said momentarily.. I have worked with the plate ump before and know that he will talk with me if I am calm and reasonable. I appologize for my outburst and ask what happened. He explains that he began asking what the field umpire saw and then told him what Obstruction was and field umpire now believes he saw obstruction. Ok then two outs later they finally plate the girls at 3rd, we go into extras and lose in the 10th.

I had a few good points of conversation with the plate umpire. one being this. he knows in his mind as he already admitted to me that they( being the umpires) made a mistake. that cost us 2 runs. Now in my conversation, he did all but admit that he knew it also was not obstruction. I told him that he will go to bed tonight knowing that because of umpire mistakes they changed the outcome of a game, and that he did not knowingly!! because I beleive he had the power to stop it. That is the disappointing part as he is an experienced umpire who takes pride in umpiring and I hope that this game hurts him as much as it did the girls that he let get taken advantage of by and inexperienced umpire and a highly experienced coach that preyed upon a weakness he saw earlier...

So I guess here is my question to the blues?? If you absolutely know that something is bogus, espeacially if it is bad enough to appologise to the coach for letting it happen will you still let it happen? I know there are procedures, but if you are the experienced ump and the newbie is blowing it, will you not take the reins if need be?

Something I was taught as an umpire was never let a mistake you make, change the outcome of a game. We all make mistakes and umpires are no different, but I could not sleep knowing that I was just the umpire in charge and I knowing let bogus things happen without doing what I could do, under the procedures, to make it right!!!

That being said. I never go for the sour grapes!! If we would have hit better, pitched better, fielded better we would not have been in that situation to begin with, so I will not even come close to using it as an excuse!! I just wanted to tell my story and get some feedback!!

Thanks for reading......

 

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Interesting question. Which is the priority, to get the call right or to not show up the fellow umpire?

 

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Well, Kyle...

It is late and you have a lot to comment on there! So, I will just touch on a couple of points and get to your real question. I'll try to be brief, but brevity isn't always one of my strong points!

Play one: Despite what you might think, I have to put the blame on the plate umpire for starting the downhill slide here. He is the one that stepped in and made a call that he should not have been making!

Standard fastpitch mechanics have the base umpire making both calls- the initial throw to third base and the throw back to first. The plate umpire was sticking his nose where it didn't belong by being anywhere near first base on this play.

The only base call the plate umpire would have would be at third base, and only then if it is either: The first throw from the outfield on a base hit, or; The second throw from the infield if the first throw was to first base.

Some umpires will want to deviate from that and have the plate umpire cover the play at first base, if it is the second play on the infield. But that is not the standard mechanic and if you want to use non-standard mechanics you had better cover it thoroughly with your partner before you ever set foot on the field.

The base umpire is starting in "C" with a runner on second, but still must move to gain ground and a good angle to see the play at first base.

Root cause of confusion and angry coaches: Non-standard umpire mechanics and poor umpire-to-umpire communication.

(I don't really care for the explanation you got, either. The plate umpire, in one fell swoop, kind of threw his partner under the bus, exposed him as a "rookie" and admitted to you that their communication is poor. Not really a conversation that will inspire confidence in the coaches about the umpires working this game. These kind of "explanations" will throw grease on an already slippery slope- the umpires are now one notch closer to losing control of the game.)

Play two: Rookie umpires will often let screaming coaches influence their calls. Plate umpire was right not to butt in until his partner asked for help. This is the base umpire's call all the way.

At least this one got to the point of eventually having a conference. If I was the plate umpire here, since I now know that my partner has no idea of the obstruction rule, I would have no confidence on him making the right call based on the thirty second rule clinic I just conducted for him on the field.

If I was confident that there wasn't obstruction on the play, I would tell him that. I would also explain to him that the call is still his and only he can change it. I would again strongly suggest to him that obstruction probably isn't a good choice. I would then tell him that he has two options. We can step away from our conference and he can signal out, or we can step away from our conference and he can announce "obstruction" and signal the runner safe- his choice.

(I would like to note that our conversation would be just between the two of us, quietly and out of earshot of any coaches or players. This would be a private conversation.)

Whichever call he makes after that is his call, he lives or dies with it and he deals with whichever coach he has to explain it to. You have to learn sometime...

Root cause of confusion and angry coaches: Inexperienced umpire not familiar with standard playing rules.

None of this answers your question, but I mention it for a reason. The root causes for most problems an umpire will have on the field are: Using non-standard mechanics; Poor communication; Lack of experience, and; Lack of rules knowledge. It just so happens that you got the "perfect storm" of all of these in one single game!

Finally, I will get to your question...

If I am working with a rookie umpire, I will step in on my own if he seems to have a problem with a specific rule interpretation. We will make that right.

I will not step in if the issue is strictly one of his judgment. Each umpire's judgment is his own.

If my partner asks for my input on any given call, I will give him my honest opinion as we try to hash things out in private, away from the coaches. But I will never just flat out reverse another umpire's judgment call on my own.

In short, I would do everything in my power to get the call right- within the boundaries of standard procedure and protocol as described in the rule book and umpire manual.

Okay...so much for being brief...

 

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We had a similar play made at third the other night and the Field Ump was literally standing on top of the play and called the runner safe. The opposing coach went balistic and ran out on the field and argued with the plate ump for over 5 minutes because "that is your call to make and you know it and I will not accept a call from the field ump on this one". After 5 minutes of yelling at the plate ump, getting right into his face, jumping up and down, etc. (the coach was a real embarassment) the home plate ump changes the call to runners out....The coached laughed, our coach went nuts and everyone could not believe this. The opposing coach at several other points during the game (after this call) went out of his way to talk down to and be just nasty to the home plate ump and the home plate ump took it all without so much as blinking an eye. With this game we learned that enough arguing and yelling at the umpire can change the call to your way! BTW - we won anyway so it did not matter but it was the principle that if you argue long enough you can get the call changed....

 

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Bretman,

Being brief would not have explained it as well as you did.

I might suggest for you to copy the questions and answers and save them in a word .doc. It might help with your answers in the future -BUT - I think a collection of the questions and your answers would be good reading. You ever think about publishing?

 

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That's why I love seeing the blues post their descriptions on these items. We all think we know the rules even when we go over and over them and yes even after sitting in classes. We had one go our way the other night that I believe was the correct call another one of our dads disagreed as we talked on it. Bunted Ball ball stopped in front of the bat, bat rolled forward into the ball, runner was safe, but the discussion was the bat can never touch the ball. I say the call was correct... Bret?

 

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Nice response Bret.

 

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Bret great explanation.. As maulled this over, even while typing it.. I realized that the home plate umpire can not just over rule judgment calls made by the field umpire, even if he is in disagreement with them, but you brought up exactly my feelings on this issue.. The home plate umpire being experienced and knowing that the corrct call is not obstruction there, could have easily pointed the inexperienced umpire in the right direction in stead of totaling letting him make the call, when he clealry did not know what obstruction was 2 minutes before..

-Here is my analogy for this. My 5 year old has a choice between ice cream or a nutritous meal for dinner. If I just let him go totally on his own judgement, he will choose the wrong one. With a little guidance from a wiser more expierienced( umpire) person. He will get it right and learn!!! bret this is in that conference that no one else hears.. maybe somehting like this, " Hey pal first I will tell you that this play is not obstruction, in my opinion. If you are not clear on obstruction I will explain it real quick, it is still your call and I will not overturn it, but let me say again that I dont believe that to be obstruction??" yeah somehting like that is what I would EXPECT from a good umpire in that situation.. ( is that something like the conversation you were talking about Bret..

 

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We had a similar play made at third the other night and the Field Ump was literally standing on top of the play and called the runner safe. The opposing coach went balistic and ran out on the field and argued with the plate ump for over 5 minutes because "that is your call to make and you know it and I will not accept a call from the field ump on this one"....

If an umpire blows a call, and he knows he blew it but it's not something that can be fixed- like maybe calling a ball "foul" too early and having it then roll fair, or not seeing something that he was supposed to be watching for, or maybe even accidentally getting into the path of a runner or thrown ball- then he has to expect some heat. Some mistakes can't be fixed and you have to live with it. He should let the coach vent, BRIEFLY, within some framework of civility and sportsmanlike conduct.

Allowing a coach to go ballistic and scream in your face for five minutes is letting him vent about four minutes and fifty five seconds too long!

Let the coach have his say- as long as he's conducting himself somewhat like a human being- and even apologize if you have to. But long before listening to five minutes of a lunatic raving, I'm going to tell the coach that the call stands, the conversation is over, we are getting back to playing ball and he needs to return to his dugout.

What he does next is up to him and could have a profound effect on whether or not he remains a participant in this game!

The play you offer is a little bit different from when an umpire just flat out blows a call. Frankly, which umpire makes a call, or which one covers which base isn't really something a coach has much say about. That is up to the umpires. Yes, there are standard coverages of who covers what and those usually work pretty well- in a perfect world. In the real world, some situations can dictate that another umpire covers a play if one gets caught out of position, or the umpires might have hashed out some variations in coverage before the game.

A coach arguing that a call belongs to one umpire or the other is the same as the coach trying to tell the umpires how to do their jobs. That's not something he gets to do!

And, the opposite is true. While the coach can't tell the umpires how to umpire, the umpires can't tell the coach how to coach. A coach telling the umpires who covers what play is the same as an umpire telling the coach when to bunt, when to steal, how to pitch to a batter or which of his players should play which position.

Players play, coaches coach and umpires umpire. If each stick to their own roles and responsibilities, it usually makes for a much more enjoyable game!