Hitting and Hitters Discussion My freshman - hitting

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Howser,

You are correct. The swing Alex takes during a drill and the swing she uses in a game are two different things. Only from the stand point that with this drill and the others she was doing that day we were working on forward momentum into rotation.

I could post a game swing up there from about a month ago and what you would see would be a young hitter that was not getting her weight transfered in and efficent manner. I was not able to get film of her at her last tournament where she had a big weekend. I go to all of my students games to watch them perform when I can find the time. Keeps me at the ball park and I get to see if what I am teaching them is working in a game situation. If not then we make adjustments. I always carry my camera with me to get film of them hitting or pitching.

Video doesnt lie. It is the only way to make sure the player is doing what is needed to be sucessful at the plate or on the pitching plate.

Elliott.

 

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Howard,

For the sake of our conversation would you give me your definition of seperation. I have heard several in my past with hitting so I do not want to assume yours would be the same as what I might be thinking in terms of a swing.

Elliott

 

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Howard - I'm sitting here shuttling Albert's clips back and forth in RVP, and as usual, you are absolutely correct. He strides ever so slightly. I think the thing that is more notable than the actual length of his stride though, is the method he uses for his negative move. I'm big on loading, and what Elliot described is very clear if you watch the RVP clip of Albert - especially the target pitcher view.

What I see Albert doing is essentially coiling his whole upper body - creating a sort of "loaded tension". Then, he drops his heel, triggering the start of an explosive uncoiling. The problem is that if not properly done it turns into a "counter rotation" of the upper torso and shoulders, causing the head (and eyes) to reverse rotate. In order for kids to load properly, I think it's important that they completely understand the difference between counter-rotating and coiling, or loading. I agree it's a difficult concept for a youngster to understand, but to eventually become a powerful hitter, and not just a contact hitter, it's a necessary concept to learn.

Englishbey uses the term "scapula loading", but I found that a hard concept to convey to kids. He also uses the term "coiling the hips", but I see a lot of power hitters (look at Siggy's softball clips) coiling more than just their hips. I'm continuing to study that, because it's sometimes very subtle.

My son picked this up pretty well, but he's a pretty big and strong high school kid. The strength issue you bring up, Howard, is something I hadn't given much thought. That's why I always enjoy your input - it keeps me thinking about this stuff. Good discussion!

 

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Sammy,

The scapula load is provided by pulling the bow string and keeping the back elbow up. This creates a pulling / pinching action in the back of the rear shoulder and the front of the front shoulder. This action creates tension on both the front and the back side of the shoulder complex. As the hitter uncoils first the hips go, then the core, then the shoulders. The scapula load is that tension you would feel when you pull the bow string and "Set" it. When the shoulders unload the tension as they turn it creates a whip of the bat from the shoulders to the arms.

Try this with your bat. Get into your stance and place your hands at the rear shoulder. Take your top hand thumb and stick it in your chest where the arm connects to the shoulder. At that point your in the right position with the hands. Then move the hands straight back towards the catcher about 4 to 5 inches for most adult males. Then "LOCK" the front arm. (Create tension in the front arm) This should load both the front and back shoulders and create a scapula load for you.

Now you know how to set it Sam.

Elliott.

 

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Coaching.
Through my travels with coaching rec softball and basketball, I got a passion for learning hitting mechanics. Good pitchers shut down rec or travels ball teams. And teams all the way to the top.

A hit against a good pitcher, most of the time require"s good mechanics.

All the hitting coach's in the cincy area that I contacted let me watch lessons.
And that is quit a few. Nice group of people.

One of them being Howard. Besides letting me watch, he said, let me see what you have done with your daughter.

He gave her one lesson. We worked on the information. and one year later he gave her 1 more lesson. We are still working with RVP and some tips from Howard.
Howard share's his knowledge freely. I appreciate that.

Being a student of learning, I asked Howard not to reply to me, because I wanted to hear what other hitting instructors and travel ball coach's had to say.

I learn allot by the comments , and the different way people explain things about different parts of the swing. Makes me better at helping my daughter and other kids I do for free.

This basketball coach I coach with has this saying.

If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
The question is. Are you happy with it?

Thanks for all the replies. Good Luck to all of you this season.

Straightleg

 

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Hi straightleg,
Started watching the video and said to myself I know that garage. My dd K still talks about you working with her and the two doubles she had the next game. E & K wonder if you are going to work with them again. ( I hope so) Look forward to seeing you and the girl's.
T

 

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[highlight]There are sites that get so wrapped up with scientific terms that we forget who we are teaching versus who they are trying to impress with their knowledge in my opinion of how the human body works. [/highlight]

Yes there are Howard, but once you get the concepts it should become second nature. I frequent such a site and while I value the information provided by many of its individuals it sometimes gets overdone to the point that it looses context and value unless you really want to sort through all the babble and BS to find the meaning of what the individual (s) were trying to convey in the first place.

By then your asleep so it doesnt matter.

I do not think we are that far apart in the manner by which we teach and what we teach Howard. There are some terms that are different but you find that when any instructor starts talking to another one. Its how we explain it to the student that is important.

Elliott.

 

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Ifubuildit

We must be on the same road, because that's exactly the way I learned to understand scap loading. Englishbey describes it and demonstrates it in his videos as a pinching of the shoulders - basically like you described. I have my son check his hand placement by sticking his bottom hand thumb into his armpit. When he pushes the hands back, he moves them back and just slightly up. I've never used the expression about the bow string, simply because I don't think he's actually ever shot with a bow, and clearly understands that. Now, understand that I don't promote violence, but to get him to be more explosive, I had him compare the loaded hitting position to getting ready to give a violent punch - think of attacking the ball. I think that's key - for each kid has a different viewpoint of the world. You must find a way to relate a concept to each kid.

For clarity, I just had him watch the pro clips included with RVP (among others), and we worked at emulating a load that was comfortable for him. So far it's kept him in the 4 hole for his high school team. Maybe they're out there somewhere, but I've yet to see a baseball coach in this area actually understand and teach this stuff. Seems as though they are content with contact hitters.

 

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Howard.
Sure thing. we will work on doing that Sunday afternoon.

ifubuildit.
If you do that scapula loading, wont your shoulders be tight and you wont be relaxed at the plate?


Riceman. Thanks.


Straightleg

 

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So hey guys, what about the pop-ups? What could be causing that?

 

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Straight,

I dont want my hitters to be "Relaxed" at the plate. I want them to create tension points in the body and unload those points to the ball. Much like a martial artist does just before he explodes his hand into the block of ice or a stack of bricks. They may look relaxed but just before they go I can promise you there is tension in those muscles as they activate and then accelerate.

What I teach is not about comfort. It about quickness and bat acceleration on a consistent swing plane through the strike zone to hit the ball hard. If you want relaxed go watch slow pitch softball.



Elliott.

 

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WV,

Popups can be caused by a number of things. Most common to rec players are the infamous dropping the hands or casting the hands at the ball. Most coaches will point out the famous" Well she is dipping the back shoulder" as proof that she has a bad swing. I want my hitters to drop the back shoulder. If you watch any high level hitter in the MLB or Professional or Olympic softball they drop the back shoulder to set the swing plane to be slightly upward to the ball.

What I see often is that the front shoulder and elbow will be well above the head during the swing and the back elbow will be buried somewhere in the area of the belly button with the barrell of the bat pointing at the catchers knees. This would be called bat drag and in every case it looks like the hitter is dipping the back shoulder. It often looks like this.

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting...;m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

Or this

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting...;m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

I would submit to you that most pop up issues are the result of poor set up, poor posture, and a poor understanding of what a high level swing should accomplish for a hitter.

Elliott.

 

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So hey guys, what about the pop-ups? ?What could be causing that?

To add to what Elliot has stated...most generally it is caused by the elbow getting infront of the hands, or "bat drag." Which is caused by the front elbow not working properly, in an out and up manner, during the rotational phase of the swing, or what is termed "making a bad first move."
If executed properly, the rear elbow should be working into the "slot", with the hands stacked over the rear elbow, creating "bat lag", not "bat drag."

 

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[highlight]Most kids do not have their athleticism or eye hand coordination and if they would consider there are about 900 MLB players that make it to the BIG SHOW versus a feeder system of 10 to 15 thousand potential want to bee's they might understand to be themselves first and avoid being extreme in their stance or preparation phase to begin their swing. High back elbows Mike Sweeny, pre loading like Albert, up on the toe of the lead foot like A Rod...at toe touch most MLB and NPF players pretty much look the same. [/highlight]

AMEN Howard.

 

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It is really hard to get a good look with the flv file format because it strips out so many frames of video, it makes it hard to stop the video at the right moments.

Here's an mp4 version of it:
http://members.cox.net/masanda/caseysswingofftee.mp4

 

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Straightleg - after watching a little closer, I noticed a few things about her approach. Notice as she tilts towards the tee, her hands are pretty low. Then, as she "holds the basketball between her knees", you'll notice her posture returns to more of an upright stance. Then she strides - but it seems like her hands are getting ahead of her hip and shoulder turn.

Howard pointed out the back elbow - and the need to keep the arms/elbows working together as a unit. For what it's worth, Englishbey uses the term "maintaining the box" to describe how the arms and shoulders more or less turn as one. Well, actually the hips fire, then the shoulders - which bring the arms along. A lot of kids want to muscle their swing with their arms. It's amazing how much faster and efficient their swing becomes when they start using their core to generate the power.

I would think if she works some at keeping her hands back until she gets the hips and shoulders turning, she will have more power. I'm also a fan of a more tilted, aggressive stance when setting the plane and initiating the swing. But this is an adjustment made for ball path too. I think the loading and keeping the hands back without dropping them will help to achieve more line drives than pop ups.

 

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Attack Mode drill

http://www.game-ex.com/cgi-bin/yabb...on=view&current=Attackmodedrill-casey.flv

 

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Just a question to think about - is her hip turn causing her back foot to pivot (as it should), or is she consciously thinking of turning her foot? One thing to note is that a really powerful hip turn (actually the whole torso including the shoulders) will actually cause the back foot to drag forward somewhat, or even come slightly off the ground onto the toe.

I'd really like to see some video of her hitting live pitching, preferably low pitches to see if she tilts to attack as opposed to disconnecting the arms. Also, video from the pitcher's view would show how well she's tilting to attack the pitch.

The attack mode drill really does tend to help her keep those hands back. I also like her quickness to the ball. Make sure she carries those habits forward into live pitching drills!

Keep up the good work!

 

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Howard,

Thank you for the invitation to join you. I would certainly enjoy trading ideas with you. I agree with you that a wider stance is better. Prior to my putting a student in a wider stance when starting with me I tend to make them stay narrower and we focus on rotational development.

It is my feeling that kids suffer from rotational deficit in most cases and dont really know how to rotate or feel what good rotation is when swinging a bat. Once I know they understand rotation and getting that back foot off the ground toe up. Then I will start widening the stance. I want them to feel ?and get the feeling of rotation ingrained into the muscle memory before I go opening the stance.

Often coaches will put players into a wide stance, tell them to rotate, and dont understand that the player doestnt know what real rotation is or what it feels like. ?So when the player doesnt hit with power the first thing you hear from the coach is "ROTATE YOUR HIPS" ?Lets set the coach up with their feet a couple of feet outside the shoulders and let's see them rotate. ?;D I want to be there to take pictures. That is what they are asking their player to do by taking a long stride. There is no way a player can rotate if they dont understand the what and how of the movement the coach is asking them to perform. What really amazes me is some do not think its that important an aspect to hitting a ball.

Elliott