Nationals for all sanctions

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SoCal tell me about Premier Girls Fastpitch!!!!!

The inaugural tournament was a great success from the opening ceremonies on the beach to the 18HS championship game having a large crowd (~1,000) and being televised live on ESPNU. PGF is very receptive to feedback and is actively working to make next year's tournament even better.

PGF is adding a 14U division in 2011. The tournament will be held Aug 1-6 (same week as ASA Nationals) and in the same cities - Huntington Beach, Irvine and Fountain Valley. Here is some info from one of the founders, Gary Haning:

As we have received MANY requests for information that we have not yet decided, I wanted to mention some things we do know.

The tournament will be held next year, it will be a week earlier. Teams will have to register, obtain insurance and submit all roster and background check information to VTD as was the case with ASA until this year. Teams will receive ID cards and such and these will be required at all qualifiers and nationals.

There will be 14U, 16U and 18UHS next year, we MAY use an age cutoff for the 18U instead of HS status alone but there WILL NOT be college players. There will probably be 64 teams in each division, we will invite fewer teams, especially fewer California teams. We will no longer protect teams from their own state in the draw. We will choose the pools and if you draw a team that is in your pool, so be it.

ESPN Rise was very happy with the event and we have every reason to believe they want to continue and further enhance the tournament with more TV, live Internet feeds and more. Our contract was for one year but they are talking a long term agreement which we hope can be successfully negotiated.

These are the most significant things that are known as of now, we coulld have fall qualifiers, we do not where they will be located. We do not know where or when the summer qualifiers will be located but there will not be one the first week of June in California because that was a bad weekend for everyone.

 

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great posts by and and thank you for the input.

can't wait to hear about the other sanctions! ASA/USA would be my first choice at 16 & 18 but have to face reality that some times budgets dont allow for that kind of travel.

 

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NSA normally doesn't announce their Worlds until the national convention the first weekend of November. The last couple of years, we have "leaked" the information earlier to help with directors running fall qualifiers.

 

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NSA normally doesn't announce their Worlds until the national convention the first weekend of November. The last couple of years, we have "leaked" the information earlier to help with directors running fall qualifiers.

Well all right! Leak this into my private message box

 

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I believe that the NSA Nationals will be held at Berliner this year. Will be interesting to see how many Ohio teams choose to play there because of the expense savings and convenience, despite how outraged our fastpitch community was over Tealtown states a few years ago. If NSA Ohio would drop, or at least apply equally, the requirement that you have to play in NSA States to play in NSA Nationals, it would surely help increase Ohio entries. But then NSA wouldn't even respond to Johnnies' requests for information after Tealtown.

For us, until N$A changes its policy about requiring participation in States, we aren't entering any NSA tourneys. Hope that others will keep to their convictions.

 

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The "tealtown disaster" was very sad. We played two games, gave up zero runs, and "lost" both. However, we have always had a great experience at the NSA World Series and have played there for a number of years with the exception of last year. If it is Columbus this year we will probably go, even though it would mean playing in the dreaded NSA State Tournament.

 

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BTW, we weren't at Tealtown, we were just disgusted that it was so poorly run and teams had to be there (well, we still think some teams get a dispensation from participating in NSA States, depending on who they know) even though they had already qualified for NSA World Series. That is a rule that is all about revenue and not about the best interest of the team. We won't give up two weekends on our schedule to be able to play at Berliner NSA World Series, which if we did play would be a warm-up for an ASA nationals (assuming we qualify for regionals or USA/ASA). I'd rather go to Bill Beckham's All Sanctions as a warm-up.

Any organization that doesn't respond to a set of questions such as the one Johnnies sent them on behalf of the OFC community, I'm loath to give any funds.

 

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NSA normally doesn't announce their Worlds until the national convention the first weekend of November. The last couple of years, we have "leaked" the information earlier to help with directors running fall qualifiers.

"leak" the info in a PM

 

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The NSA World Series is a well run event, I hope they consider bringing it to Berliner again. The Tealtown thing has been over for 2 years people, get over it (yes, I was there).

 

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bambam:

It's also about an artificial requirement that you play in the NSA States even if you have already qualified for NSA Nationals, whether that fits into your schedule or whether that tournament has been run correctly in the past. And it is about whether an organization responds to reasonable questions about its operations. So no, I won't get over it.

 

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CGS, Please do not take this the wrong way. I think we have met and I have total respect for the Heat organization and especially that Johnnies characther I can't answer the questions from Tealtown as I wasn't there and was in the process of taking a year sabbatical from NSA. The playing of the state tournament is not an "artifical" requirement, it is stated in our by-laws and has been since the first year I held a FP qualifier which was 2000. Now if the Ohio NSA has applied it properly in the past, I can not answer that as this was the first year with the split state system and I was not privvy to the decision making prior to this summer.

Only in Ohio is the mandatory state even questioned. There is another sanction that requires it, but they are *** about enfocing it in Ohio. In other states, they hold the teams to it and I would be surprised if they do not start telling teams that do not meet the requirement to stay home. I was going to put in a proposal to see if the requirement can be waived or at least give the tournament winner a direct berth and was told to save the paper it would be written on. Here is the dilemma with submitting that proposal, Michigan NSA just had their largest state tournament ever with 148 teams. Indiana NSA runs North and South B states along with there A state in the central part of the state and had 145-175 teams between all three. Illinois NSA had close to 100 teams in there states all in one place on the same weekend. Missouri NSA had in the 75 range. These 3 state directors have some of the biggest influence in the NSA FP program. If those three say it won't get changed, then you can bet it won't.

Ohio NSA as a whole can rebound. We are only 3-4 years away from having 100+ teams in our states ourselves. We are looking at making some significant changes in scheduling and tournament structure. I can not give details as this is just the preliminary start of talks and negotiaions and we still have to work logisitics with Northern Ohio NSA to make sure this can be accomplished and done properly.

As far as Berliner, I am not aware of any negotiations yet. This doesn't mean it isn't going on, it just means it might be just talk and no meetings have been set as of yet. It would be nice to have them here again as it takes me all of 20 minutes to get to the park and I get to sleep in my own bed vs a hotel bed, sharing a room with another director, and being away from my little girl for a whole week. I think there is a tournament that jumped into the slot that NSA used to go on, and I don't think they are leaving. This would be a major obstacle for the NSA to get by to start and go at Berliner every other year. Of course, I would like to see it fly as it gives my program a shot in the arm.

 

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Mike:

I have total respect for your skills as a TD and I know that you were upset enough about Tealtown to take your hiatus. But if a team wins a qualifier and then is forced to participate in states, that can ONLY be about money. If an already qualified team participates in states, for example, and loses every game, are they disqualified from NSA Nationals? No. So if teams are trying to get better and are trying to find exposure tournaments, why should they be forced to NSA States? Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think there are many college coaches at NSA States.

The numbers that you have recited from other states are to me damning rather than encouraging. They tell me that NSA National and State organizations want to make excessive amounts of money off their state tournaments. 148 teams? Seriously? Why would we want to play in such a large tournament here in Ohio if it means we have no idea about the quality of the teams we will face in pool play and it also might mean that we would have to skip a USA/ASA qualifier?

And yes, I'm still ticked off that Johnnies got no response from the NSA regarding legitimate questions that were formulated with input from OFC members. Just another reason . . .

You have fought the good fight and decided to return to the NSA. Undoubtedly other teams will return to some NSA tournaments, including NSA Nationals when it comes back to Columbus. I don't have any control over whether Buckeye Heat 95 participates in NSA tournaments (that's the Big Guy's call) and the Big Guy doesn't have any control over other Buckeye Heat teams' decisions. I just think that as a matter of principle I'd rather vote with my feet regarding the NSA policy that requires participation in a huge State tournament (with a very poor track record) after you have already qualified for Nationals. I still shudder to think of the dollars that Ohio families spent on the Tealtown fiasco.

 

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Let me say this about enforcing everyone go to States.

It seems very logical and needed. How else are you going to tell how good teams are? I am from Michigan and we saw teams at States that we did not know even existed. And why would you be opposed to testing your team in a large double elimination tournament. I find the NSA double elim set up to be the best tournaments we have played in at States and then at Worlds.

Wrap your mind around this one. What if NSA keeps growing. And only teams that win or finish runner up can go to States. Then only the top 16 from States can go to the Worlds Tournament? It seems to me a logical process. With I think 8 States in the North Region that would still be over 100 teams in one age group as it is.

Is the above likely. Probably not. But I think if you are running NSA you have to think like that. Otherwise you are becoming USSSA which lets just about anyone do anything.

 

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How else are you going to tell how good teams are? I am from Michigan and we saw teams at States that we did not know even existed. And why would you be opposed to testing your team in a large double elimination tournament.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Who is the "you" that is discerning how good teams are through the large NSA State tournament? If you are speaking of the NSA, that body certainly doesn't disqualify a team that loses at States but has already earned a regional Worlds berth. Maybe they give more berths through States and that would be a good reason for teams who haven't already qualified to choose to attend. (I'm actually not sure how many additional berths are offered). But my central concern is why force a team who has already qualified to play States? It can only be about money.

If the "you" in your sentence is me, then at the risk of being immodest, I already know who the best teams are and we want our team playing them as much as possible. At this point, we aren't looking for lop-sided wins; we are looking for playing experience that will develop physical and mental skills for our girls, even if that means fewer wins. Here in Ohio, those best teams are almost uniformly going to be at USA/ASA national qualifiers and at well-established invitational/exposure tournaments. Take three invitational/exposure events, ASA States, an ASA Region 9 closed qualifier, an ASA Dayton Metro qualifier, an ASA Cleveland metro qualifier and an open ASA Region 9 qualifier; that only leaves room for two more tournaments, or one more tournament if we choose to play one of the out of state events such as Colorado over the 4th of July or the Hall of Fame in Oklahoma should we qualify. If, hypothetically, we had already qualified for NSA Nationals (say through a fall qualifier) and wanted the experience of playing at the regional World Series in Columbus as a tune-up to an ASA nationals, why should we be forced to use one of our weekends to play at NSA States if we see a better quality opportunity elsewhere?

BTW, all those ASA qualifiers are double elimination, a format that I too love.

 

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Wrap your mind around this one. What if NSA keeps growing. And only teams that win or finish runner up can go to States. Then only the top 16 from States can go to the Worlds Tournament? It seems to me a logical process. With I think 8 States in the North Region that would still be over 100 teams in one age group as it is.

Is the above likely. Probably not. But I think if you are running NSA you have to think like that. Otherwise you are becoming USSSA which lets just about anyone do anything.

spartansd:

Here we have a meeting of the minds. The system that you propose would then have a purpose related to improving the depth of the qualitative competition both at the States and the regional World Series. Making your performance at NSA States a criteria for attending NSA Worlds doesn't bother me. What does bother me is telling a team that has already qualified for the regional Worlds that the team also has to attend NSA States even though the team's performance at States is irrelevant to their participation in the Worlds. That stance steals a weekend that the team might have devoted either to rest or to a more desirable (better competition, closer to home, etc. etc.) tournament for what can only appear as the purpose of generating more money for the NSA.

 

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I was really referring to the generic you of NSA.

I do not mind going to States but I guess I never considered it an option. And now you are making think I am getting shafted.........you are not helping me maintain my oblivious state of happiness.

I guess the question would be why the hell I am forced to go if I am already qualified. Now you kind of have me thinking. But I guess I will say this. To qualify for Worlds you have to go to States. That is part of the process. I have never read that you just have to win a tournamnet. You also must go to States. So you have an issue with the go to States part. Which it is impossible for me to argue it is anything but a money grab. But I like the tournament and it is a double elim which I really like.

I will say I have come to the conclusion that there are too many sanctioning bodies in fastpitch. It really needs to be consolidated. I think ASA does it right but there are practically no ASA options in Michigan. And to be honest it is hard to even figure out the web site. Or to find results or tournaments.

 

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spartansd:

You are absolutely right about the ASA web site and about getting information. We stay with ASA despite those frustrations because here in Ohio the competition is far better and other than with the possible exception of the new Premier competitions, we think that USA/ASA offers the best season-ending competition and the most attention from college coaches. So our goal is to qualify for that every year once the girls get older.

If NSA is the game to play in Michigan because the ASA doesn't have quality competition, then I understand your position. I just think that you get short-changed when it comes to that season-ending competition and I sure don't know why you would have to participate at NSA States to be able to participate at NSA regional Worlds if the results of your participation at NSA States don't mean anything because you have already qualified for Worlds. Oh, except for all that money that NSA makes.

 

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The idea to go onto the Worlds is to qualify somewhere. Qualifiers give berths on a 1:4 teams entered ratio, NITS give them to the top 4 with the winner getting a DIRECT berth in. States also have 4 berths and can pass down if needed. We do allow at-larges for the teams that meet certain criteria in repsect to tournaments played. Whether anyone agrees or not, this is a business also and we have to take care of our best customers.

We tried a Super World a few years back, couldn't get any of the top teams to attend except for pass downs to teams in the general vicinity of the tournament.

I like the idea of thinning it out to make the tournament more elite. Puts more impetus on being an elite team. I thihk this is referred to as "Gold" in other sanctions.

I agree also that there are about 10-12 sanctions now which is about 10 too many :The older three (ASA/USSSA/NSA) and the upstarts. Someone gets upset with direction at one and starts there own with there own ways and rules and nationals. Most of them ending up being regional in nature and a few teams trickle in especially if the Worlds/Nationals are held in a nice place.

I guess the question would be why the hell I am forced to go if I am already qualified. Now you kind of have me thinking. But I guess I will say this. To qualify for Worlds you have to go to States. That is part of the process. I have never read that you just have to win a tournamnet. You also must go to States. So you have an issue with the go to States part. Which it is impossible for me to argue it is anything but a money grab. But I like the tournament and it is a double elim which I really like.

I will say I have come to the conclusion that there are too many sanctioning bodies in fastpitch. It really needs to be consolidated. I think ASA does it right but there are practically no ASA options in Michigan. And to be honest it is hard to even figure out the web site. Or to find results or tournaments.

 

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Mike:

I believe you and I are on the same page. If your organization can't recognize that allowing 4:1 qualifiers for regional Worlds and then allowing at-large bids for regional Worlds doesn't raise the question why a huge NSA States tournament that only produces 4 bids (and NO bids for teams that have already qualified but are forced to be there) should be a requirement, that's not your fault. Especially after trying to fight the good fight.

I will say, however, that the ASA regional Nationals, which is at least comparable to the NSA regional World Series in quality (and arguably better), doesn't require participation at ASA States if the team has already qualified. Further, to my knowledge, with the exception of the 18U competition at NSA World Series and the new Premier competitions, no one other than ASA has a nation-wide final tournament that requires qualification through fairly restrictive means. There are only 9-10 teams from Ohio that can go to a USA/ASA and those teams are not artificially required to play ASA States if they have already earned a berth. Ask McMadness if they are mandated to play any required tournament after earning their berth by winning ASA Eastern Nationals.

Mike, I wish you nothing but the best for all the time that you have contributed to Ohio fastpitch. And I truly know that your heart is in the right place.

 

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JUNIOR OLYMPIC FAST PITCH
USA/ASA Girls’ GOLD 18-Under 7/31/2011 8/6/2011 Western Territory
USA/ASA Girls’ Class A 10-Under 7/31/2011 8/7/2011 Johnson City, TN
USA/ASA Girls’ Class A 12-Under 7/31/2011 8/7/2011 Montgomery, AL
USA/ASA Girls’ Class A 14-Under 7/31/2011 8/7/2011 Midland, TX
USA/ASA Girls’ Class A 16-Under 7/31/2011 8/7/2011 Chattanooga, TN
USA/ASA Girls’ Class A 18-Under 7/31/2011 8/7/2011 Normal, IL

Territory Tournaments
Girls’ A 10-Under Eastern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 Salem, VA
Girls’ A 12-Under Eastern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 Salem, VA
Girls’ A 14-Under Eastern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 Sterling, VA
Girls’ A 16-Under Eastern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 Salem, VA
Girls’ A 18-Under Eastern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 York, PA
Girls’ Gold 18-Under Eastern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 www.asasoftball.com

Girls’ A 10-Under Northern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 Rochester, MN
Girls’ A 12-Under Northern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 Springfield, MO
Girls’ A 14-Under Northern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 Bowling Green, KY
Girls’ A 16-Under Northern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 Mount Pleasant, MI
Girls’ A 18-Under Northern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 Overland Park, KS
Girls’ Gold 18-Under Northern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 www.asasoftball.com

Girls’ B 10-Under Eastern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 York, PA
Girls’ B 12-Under Eastern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 York, PA
Girls’ B 14-Under Eastern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 Frederick, MD
Girls’ B 16-Under Eastern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 Canton, OH
Girls’ B 18-Under Eastern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 Canton, OH

Girls’ B 10-Under Northern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 Rochester, MN
Girls’ B 12-Under Northern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 St. Louis, MO
Girls’ B 14-Under Northern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 Novi, MI
Girls’ B 16-Under Northern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 Bloomington, IN
Girls’ B 18-Under Northern 8/1/2011 8/7/2011 Rochester, MN