peel vs turn over drop.

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[quote author=cshilt link=1196101528/0#8 date=1196172000][quote author=bo6608 link=1196101528/0#6 date=1196122281][highlight]As for the turn-over drop, I was told that after breaking the mechanics of a turn-over drop down on video it was actually a peel drop with the turn over motion happening after the ball had left the hand.[/highlight] No contact with the ball during the motion means it is just a poor follow thru that will risk injury. The peel is a natural motion and will allow your arm to decelerate properly and avoid injury

Exactly. Here is a video of Cat Osterman throwing her drop ball. Watch her hand at the point where the video slows down and you'll see that at the point of release she is throwing a peel drop, after the release she rolls her wrist over.

http://www.fast-pitch.com/images/drop_ball_osterman.wmv
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I have to somewhat disagree with this....If the video was a little more clear, at her hand, you would actually be able to see that Cat is actually turning the ball over, "spinning" it with her fingers. The turn over is being created with her fingers before her wrist ever turns over. Hillhouse himself states that the spin is created with the fingers and not the wrist.
If you really focus on the fingers in this video, you will see the fingers starting to turn the ball over.[/quote]

The peel/turn over drop info i posted earlier was not my research. It was something I heard from one of the Gillis satellite instructors. I don?t know how true it is or even if Gillis endorses the viewpoint. My only real exposure to pitching coaches has been with Gillis and Hillhouse. They are very similar instructors and both teach the peel drop.

Ifubuildit & Lady Knights,
I respect and enjoy all of your posts. It is clear that you are very knowledgeable and have been at this a long time.

Elliott,
I know you are from out west and the success of the teams in your neck of the woods speaks for itself. Is the peel or the turn-over more predominate in Texas? And which do you teach?

I?m asking because (with my limited knowledge) it seems the peel is a superior method. It seems to be more natural, easier to learn, with more potential for fingers to generate rpm?s. Is the turn over better in your opinion? Are there advantages of one over the other?

Thanks

 

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The reason we teach the peel is it is easier to learn. Read www.pitchsoftball.com It will go into detail on both pitches. My dd learned the peel first from Bill Hillhouse. She is now learning the turn over, as she can turn it into a drop curve which is a tough pitch against slappers.

 

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Is the turn over better in your opinion? Are there advantages of one over the other?

The peel drop is more deceptive as you don't have to change your motion, stride, or follow-thru to throw this pitch. It can also be thrown faster as the most powerful pitch is thrown with the middle finger behind the ball. Rolling over the ball will take 3-4 mph off of the pitch.

http://www.pitchsoftball.com/Page12.html

 

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Either method is effective. My daughter started with the peel drop, but we now use the turnover drop. I like the fact that the speed is a little different from her fastball, plus she can add a curve to the pitch. I think it depends a lot on the pitcher. Some will have better success with one over the other.

Joe

 

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My dd also throws the peel drop but I would not say it is the superior method. Both are very effective. I believe if someone did a poll among colledge and pro pitchers, you would find that most throw a turnover. I've been led to believe that with the turnover you can gain more movement. Is that a mythe?

 

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I could be wrong, but if your DD has a female pitching coach she throws the turnover drop. If she has a male pitching coach, she throws the peel drop. Just my experience with pitching coaches.

 

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Lady_Knights that is a pretty good statement. Never thought about it, but after all the pitching camps/clincs you are 100% correct. We started with the peel, via Hillhouse. Almost all the college camps have females and all throw the turn over to get more movement on the pitch. Many like to throw the drop curve. I disagree about how the pitch is now taught. Good pitching coaches now tell you to keep the same motion as your other pitches. They use to teach a shorter stride. Good hitters pick up on this right away. Bill makes the point do not change your motion or give away what you are throwing to the batter. As kids get older they pick up on these habits or slight changes. I think the easiest Pitch to see as a hitter is the back hand change up. I have trained my hitters to know when its coming.

 

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I see a lot of talk about hitters being able to pick up this or pick up that when it comes to pitching release, but I find it all very hard to believe. If you do the math it takes a ball thrown in the low 50s less than half a second to reach the plate (and we all know from previous OFC posts every pitcher out there is throwing in the low to mid 60s). How can any but the most experienced (I'm talking NPF all-stars) be able to focus on a wrist move or the 6-8 inches a pitcher might shorten her stride on a drop, and then readjust her focus back to the moving ball and then make an adjustment in her swing in that short of a time span. I've sat on the bucket many a time and taken more than my fair share of shots to the shins, trying to do just that (ok so my reflexes aren't what they used to be). Big dramatic changes, or changes early in the motion, sure, but minor changes at the release of the ball no way. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who think they are doing it, but my guess is they are focused on the ball all the way and just have incredible hand-eye coordination. Just my 2 cents!

 

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TiJaLeII, I can not speak for everyone..and you are right that it`s very hard for a hitter to adjust in that short of time....
When I played Baseball(I know a long time ago ;D) I studied a pitcher to tip off his pitches from the dugout and on-deck circle, that way if I noticed him doing it before I reached the box I may have had a slight advantage...I try to teach my girls this now... a game last summer my DD noticed a pitcher from another team would raise a knuckle on her hand to pitch her change-up she went up to bat waiting to see the knuckle and drove a change-up to the fence for a triple...IMHO you make the adjustments before you get to the box and not when your in it... I also look for tips when I coach third so maybe I can call for something on a certain pitch...

 

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Go to a coaches clinic ?that have Dave Patkeau and Bill Hillhouse and ?you will see some of the vision training that is being ?discussed on this website. ? For those of us that went to the Greenville Clinic we picked up some good vision training. ?It is easy and not hard and you can train any hitter at any age. He can even teach you how to see the rise ball. ? I have a 13U pitcher and she throws in the mid 50's and it does work. ?Hitter , Howard Carrier has some very good postings on training the eyes for hitters. ?If you watch your daughter, next time focus only at her hip 1.6 seconds before you catch the ball. ?Tape some yellow tape on her hip at her release point or use the perfect cirlce training device that Bill recommends ?and that helps you as a catcher/hitter to see what they are talking about. ?

 

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643dp
Did your DD see the knuckle happen before the windup or at the release? If it was at the release WOW, to even see half inch variation in a knuckle on a moving target at 40' is impressive. If she picked it up as the pitcher is taking a signal or going into her windup, you prove my point. I agree 100% with your HO, watch the pitcher when you don't have to hit the ball (in the dugout) and you can focus on her actions.

SBFAMILY
While I've never worked with Dave or Bill, I have worked with Shannon Salsburg of BG, and she's all about vision and vision training. I do understand it and agree with it's importance, but my point is some of the things a lot of "hitting gurus" claim can be seen in a pitchers motion are simply not possible. I'm not saying there's no way to pick things up, if you see the top of the hand on release expect change-up, but I'll take good hand eye coordination and a good knowledge of a pitcher/coaches/catchers style of calling a game over looking for a girl to shorten her stride by 6-8 inches any day of the week. JMHO

Oh yes, I also firmly believe the rise ball does NOT rise. (sound of worm can opening here)

 

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TiJaLeII,... Yes she did pick it up pre wind-up she said she noticed it between the innings in warm-ups, Then while I coached 3rd when I saw her knuckle I sent the runner stealing (she had a slow change-up)
I agree with you it is very hard to notice that kind of stuff at release( I can`t do it thats for sure ) but I am sure others will disagree...

BTW Shannon Salsburg is one of the best,, her energy and enthusiasm rubs off

 

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Just to show you how much opinions differ. Go to the Wright State Coaches clinic and observe Howard Carrier's hitting presentation and see how much it is different than what Shannon is doing at Bowling Green. Many of us coaches feel the Midwest is behind the West coast teams, because we do not use many of the new tools that are being taught. Like I said go see for yourself. Howard and Dave both give excellent insight into hitting.

 

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Good thread here.

Both of these pitches are effective and both work. Here in Texas I see more rollover drop pitchers than I do Peel drop pitchers. The movement of the rollover is more on a 2 plane than the peel which is just down. That is what makes Ostermans rollover so effective. And it is the fingers. Have seen it up close and personal. The other aspect of these pitches is that the rollover tends to be a bit slower with more movement than the peel.

Spin is critical to the success of both and like Bill Hillhouse I too do not think you should change your motion to throw either of these pitches. With young pitchers I have taught them both. The question would be why? Simple. Change of speed. If they throw a fastball, Peel, Rollover and Change up then in effect they have 4 pitches that are thrown at 4 different speeds. I personally think the peel is a little slower than a fast ball. The rollover slower than the peel and the Change up slower than all of them.

Most pitchers IMO do not use changing speeds enough when they pitch. Very seldom do I see a HS pitcher who has an effective off speed pitch in the arsenal. The ones who do will often spin hitters into the ground. The roll over is that pitch. My DD used to throw the drop curve off speed. She would throw her rollover as a change up at times. She was also known to throw the screw ball as a change up.

You see just about any pitch that is thrown can be used as a change up except the rise. It doesnt have to be the back hand change or the circle change or the handshake change. Just about every pitch can be used as an off speed pitch or change up. Most pitching coaches will not teach that to their pitchers. All you have to do is use your imagination and work at it. Show me a pitcher that can change speeds at will and I will show you a winning pitcher. Many coaches and pitchers think only one thing.

GIVE ME SPEED.

Speed is good. Movement and variation combined with speed is DANGEROUS. Two words. Cat Osterman.

One of the best performances I ever saw from a pitcher was a young lady who threw change ups on 60% of her pitches during her game. The other 20% were off speed and the final 20% was Rise balls with speed. She had the other team so frustrated that players were throwing helmets and bats in the dugout. She threw a 2 hitter against a really strong hitting team.

Speed may kill but change in speed destroys.

Elliott.

 

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Very good post Elliott. Our Pitching coach has taught my dd three different change ups. Each has a different speed. I couldn't agree more on speed. That is what you read on here that dd throws a 60 mph fast ball. Who cares,,, First of all no one throws a fast ball , when you get older.