PGF perspective on the ASA JO Cup

[WWolff]

PGF perspective on the ASA JO Cup (2/20) by Full Count Softball



Last Friday, we reported on Full Count Softball the news that broke during the week about an ASA/USA Softball-produced event called the ?USA Softball Junior Olympic Cup? scheduled for July 26-August 1 in Chino Hills, Calif.
Two things about the JO Cup that have created discussion across the softball nation are that there?s a significant cash payout to the top finishers?in excess of $100,000?and also that the event runs at the same time as the Premier Girls Fastpitch (PGF) 18U Nationals.
When we first heard about the scheduling conflict, we reached out to PGF President/CEO Dan Hay to get his perspective on the competing tournament? here are his thoughts as well as those of Vice President Gary Haning, the long-time head coach of the OC Batbusters?

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Dan Hay: Premier Girls Fastpitch saw the announcement of the proposed USA Softball Junior Olympic Cup tournament this summer, wherein teams will receive money for winning or placing high in the event.
At first glance, the tournament appears to be disingenuous and after taking time to consider all the aspects of this tournament, PGF is concerned by a number of issues this event brings to youth sports and softball in particular.
This topic would be better served by hearing the comments of longtime ASA and PGF Championship coach and PGF Co-Founder/Vice President Gary Haning.
However, before we hear his comments, PGF would like us to remember how the company came to be.
Premier Girls Fastpitch started because, after years of asking for changes from ASA and being ignored, a select group of softball coaches wanted to try a different approach so PGF was created. We then introduced our own National Championships consisting of an 18U and 16U division.
We never imagined the tremendous growth Premier Girls Fastpitch would have throughout the United States over the last six years.

Last year, PGF says it spent over $270,000 on its two opening ceremonies and media coverage to enhance the National Championships.

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PGF was a business concept that started by offering quality tournaments for competitive youth softball teams throughout the United States. That concept has grown to be a brand known at levels within the softball community for providing a high-end product that everyone associated with PGF is proud of. We make it a point to listen to our membership and serve them in the best way possible.
We continue to field requests on a daily basis of those wanting PGF to sanction their respective organizations. We continue to strive to make the sport better and have set a standard of excellence.
Through it all, we have never altered our initial position and goal of putting on the best National Tournament at the most comfortable sites with the most care and concern given to the participants and the highest level of competition.
For example, PGF spent over $270,000 last summer on the opening ceremonies and media coverage, including television and radio alone.
We could definitely do the tournament without either, but we feel that these extra enhancements benefit the players, coaches and parents and should always remain in our program no matter what the cost.
PGF is still learning and we hope to never stop finding ways to improve. From day one, we have dealt with attacks in the form of threats to umpires being blackballed, fields being taken away from our organizers, insurance not being accepted and personal attacks on PGF officials.
Through it all, we have said nothing and gone about our business. PGF has always taken the high road and maintained a high level of integrity. We have always felt that the bigger picture was about what?s best for the sport, our female student-athletes and the PGF general membership and tried to minimize the politics as much as possible.
PGF is now an option of choice? in many communities throughout the country, providing our representatives are not running into roadblocks. It?s important to note that PGF has never told its membership not to play in another organization. We have always promoted our product as a choice? for those in the softball community to consider and if you like what you see, then we hope you stay awhile.
As to the news that?s come out around this conflicting tournament, PGF normally doesn?t comment publicly on national issues, especially when we feel the message or announcement from our competitors is disingenuous.
But we are greatly disturbed by a number of issues concerning this ASA tournament and what it brings to our sport of softball. Gary Haning has been a travel ball coach for over 40 years. He has won eight ASA National Championships and one PGF National Championship.
Gary has coached a few Junior Olympic National teams and basically has seen it all. His experience is second-to-none and PGF would like all of you to hear Gary?s comments on these issues drawing on his experience as a coach and key figure in fastpitch softball?

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[WWolff]

Gary Haning: I want to start by saying that my concern is not for my team, the OC Batbusters, as we would never participate in such a tournament even if we felt we had a great chance to win the money.
Nor is my uneasiness about myself being an official of PGF and fearing it will impact our National Tournament in a negative fashion.

Gary Haning has won nine combined ASA and PGF National Championships.

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I do not know which teams will end up playing for the money, but I do know the teams that will NOT be playing there. I have spoken with the coaches of many of the elite teams in the country over the past few days. I am confident that the Premier Divisions of PGF Nationals will continue to be the most attractive, most competitive and, overall, most meaningful tournament as it has been since its inception.
I have strong reservations about this new ASA event touching several different issues:
1. Amateurism
The athletes we coach and train to play for enjoyment and love of the game are already being pushed from the time they are 14 years old or younger to earn a college scholarship. Fortunately, despite the pressure of college recruiting, winning a National Championship remains a very pure and wholesome goal and stands alone without any need of financial compensation.

2. Expectations and Pressure
If you have ever been involved with a team as it nears a championship, you know that the experience becomes very emotional and stressful. We have always welcomed the pressure as we believe it shows character and serves to prepare an athlete for her future. There is a downside if a team does not win and if there is a play or series of plays that point to a particular athlete as the person who cost the team the victory. We all know that no one play ever decides a game but I have seen some really devastated kids and I do not care to add the burden of a girl thinking her mistake cost her team $40,000 or some other large sum of money.

3. College Eligibility
I read the NCAA Eligibility FAQ page and spoke with one of their representatives yesterday. The following is myinterpretation of her answers to my questions. I strongly encourage any parent who has a daughter that will play in this payout tournament to call the NCAA Eligibility phone number (317-917-6008) and be sure you understand the rules very clearly.
A softball player may not receive money from her team for playing in a tournament. A softball player may not have her team fees nor team paid travel expenses reimbursed by her team if it wins money. An athlete may compete in a tournament and win an amount lesser than or equal to her expenses, that she pays, for that tournament.
These are the points I asked her to clarify many times to the extent she got angry with me but please, investigate this for yourself!
If money won as a prize could be used to cover a succeeding year’s expenses, or in a way to indirectly benefit the players on a team, is another question that is uncertain at this time.
The most salient point is that once money starts getting thrown around in a world where retaining one’s amateur standing is critical, there is much need for caution.

Gary Haning has coached club teams for over 40 years.

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4. Gambling
I do not want to insinuate anything is illegal, but in my view to ask a team to raise $6,000 for entry into a tournament that pays out $40,000 sounds a lot like a lottery. That entry fee is thousands of dollars more expensive than any other National Tournament.
A team cannot win a large sum at any other tournament, but an entry fee this high is a significant amount to raise on the slim hope any given team will be the best team on any given weekend. Especially when no one will even know which teams are entered until after paying its fee.

5. Potential for abuse
There are coaches who will do some scary things to win. Such a coach could and, I believe in time, will offer money under the table to a top pitcher or hitter. There are also some parents who will take such an offer. If you do not believe this can happen, you are not paying attention to the state of the athletic world today.

6. Implied path to the National Teams and, ultimately, the Olympics
My final issue is not with the idea of the tournament itself, but how it was represented as the path to National Teams. I find this to be a little disconcerting when considering the past few years of Junior Olympic Teams and prior U.S. Olympic Teams.
Research shows that 17 of the 20 athletes (including alternates) on the current Junior Olympic National Team played in the PGF Nationals last summer. The JO Team chosen two years earlier had similar numbers. As a youth player, you can play ASA, USSSA, Triple Crown, PGF or anywhere else and have a chance to make the JO Team.
But this has nothing to do with the selection process of the U.S. Olympic Teams and U.S. Women’s National Teams, which are chosen from college teams and beyond. If you do well in college you have a shot at a National Team.
Play poorly or average in college, you better hope your coach is a National Team coach. As of now there is no Olympic Team nor is there Olympic Softball. If it is played in Japan, that will be because the host country has a great passion for the sport and a greater passion for baseball.

Important to note: that does not mean it will be included beyond 2020!
ASA is the National Governing Body of Softball and that is unlikely to change. They have industrial, church, military, slow-pitch, modified pitch and all other manner of leagues and teams. As the NGB they do have control over USA National Teams in the eyes of the USOC and the International Softball Federation. It is unlikely that either of those affiliations will change.
I was an ASA Coach at some level from the mid-seventies until 2010. My team won its first National Championship in ASA and it was a highlight of my sports life. I got to participate in a National Olympic Festival and that is a cherished memory.
I’ve coached JO National Teams, I once was asked to form and chair a committee to develop a plan for a standing 18U and, eventually, a 16U National Team.
I mention these things to try to show that I have some knowledge of how things work there.
I personally feel—and I think all of us at PGF believe the same way—that competition is good and makes everyone up their game and provides options.
But when there are so many concerns and possibilities of an event negatively impacting athletes, families and organizations, then you have to stop and ask if this is truly what’s best for the sport.
I have great concerns that it is not.

 

[BulldawgsDirector]

And... Counter punch! Can't wait for the ASA response.... and Mayweather/ Pacquiao for that matter.

 

[SMc4SMc]

If the tournament date didn't conflict or compete with PGF's tourney or if ASA only charged $700 or $1000 andthen would it be any more concern than the larger better financed organizations offering an enticing product than smaller organizations? If the organization Or if the winnings are rolled into a scholarship or goody bags full of swag then would it be any more concern?
How is this all that different than what some face locally when community or school ball takes huge hits because they can't compete due to paperwork letaalone funding.

If it's a lie or false advertising. .. take it to them. If its fair and legal competition then Mayweather and Pacquiao lace 'em up.

 

[wow]

Remember when Lebron was still in high school and the jersey and hummer were issues? Don't tell me PT 5 from above is not a real issue. There are so many ethical issues with $100000 at stake. People do stupid stuff for money!

Scholarships seems like a better route, at least the funding would go towards a education. All I can think about is the world series of poker and the $10,000 buy in to get "in the money" people sponsor players and then hope the get a ROI on their money. I can see all kinds of back room deals put together of teams and promise of "winning back and making money".

 

[BulldawgsDirector]

Coach Haning makes several great points and I find this absolutely fascinating. This is potentially a game changer. I think PGF's response was about as expected. I would like to hear an ASA rebuttal to those questions/ concerns. I find it hard to believe that the official sanctioning body for Olympic softball didn't consider those points, and if they didn't and have no rebuttal, could come across rather foolish. ASA tossed the first grenade across the boarder, PGF countered, and the winner of this battle could have firm control over being the top dog at the Elite showcase level.

I believe that this really may backfire on ASA.

I wonder who the District 11 representative will be at the JO cup. That Catnis Everdeen is a stud. "May the odds be ever in your favor"

 

[GeneralsDad]

Again, I like the aggressive approach by ASA. Healthy competition will only better the sport for our daughters. As for the comments by PGF, or ASA, they are the same as in politics. One side will only represent facts, or partial facts to cast a light in their favor, while naturally, the other side is desperate. As for back room deals, you don't need $100,000 to bring out the unscrupulous. Any team offering free or reduced fees for a stud player would be in the same boat. The reward just isn't as big.

 

[DougL]

You will not hear a rebuttal from ASA ... why should they? As stated above they are the governing body of softball and this is their position and direction. Time will tell how successful it will be.

 

[WWolff]

You will not hear a rebuttal from ASA ... why should they? As stated above they are the governing body of softball and this is their position and direction. Time will tell how successful it will be.

Doug what does the national governing body of softball mean to you ? I have always been curious what peoples perception of the statement is.
Thanks

 

[Coach Tony]

It would be quite interesting to hear how the AMATEUR Softball Association will justify kids playing for prize money... Even if it is prize money that goes "to an organization." But I doubt they will respond. They have already gotten what they wanted: a lot of buzz and discussion about ASA.

My fear is that if this event does take place (which I highly doubt it will), it will tempt tournament directors across the country to raise their tournament entry fees. After all, $400-800 for a tournament (obviously excluding nationals) looks ridiculously cheap compared to $6,000.

 

[WWolff]

JO Cup update: invite timeline extended (3/3)

• Events
• ASA/USA Softball

Mar 3, 20150


A little over two weeks ago, ASAU/USA Softball announced its event called the USA Softball Junior Olympic Cup (“JO Cup”) which will run July 26-August 1 in Chino Hills, Calif.
You can read the details on the event here.
As was mentioned in the article from February 13, invited teams who wanted to participate had a deadline of March 1 to submit the deposit of $2,000 to go towards the total entry fee of $6,000.
It was expected that the list of the participating teams, be it 24, 28 or 32, would be announced shortly after the deadline which was Sunday.
I reached out to ASA/USA Softball today to see when the teams would be announced… here was the response received through e-mail:

“We are extending the invitation timeline in order for teams to review this information with their coaches and parents. This extension has been prompted by communication with several coaches who received invitations and want to take time to explore options. We are hoping to announce the teams no later than April 1 and will keep you posted.”

There has been discussion as well regarding the cash payout to teams and perhaps players. Many wondered if this is legal or would be a violation of NCAA policy.
The email received today from ASA/USA Softball indicates that the organization has spoken with the NCAA and received the following, NCAA Bylaw 12.1.2.1.5:
Payment Based on Performance. Any payment conditioned on the individual’s or team’s place finish or performance or given on an incentive basis that exceeds actual and necessary expenses, or receipt of expenses in excess of the same reasonable amount for permissible expenses given to all individuals or team members involved in the competition. (Revised: 4/25/02 effective 8/1/02, 1/19/13 effective 8/1/13)

Finally, one of the surprises around the launch of the JO Cup was that it will be held the same week as the Premier Girls Fastpitch (“PGF”) Nationals in Huntington Beach, Calif. On February 20, the PGF issued its response to the JO Cup which can be read here.
It will be interesting to see how the next month goes regarding the number of teams who will confirm and who these teams will be… stay tuned, we’ll update as the news comes in…

— Brentt Eads, Full Count Softball

 

[HITTER23]

In other words, no one signed up yet....

 

[JoeA1010]

I see nothing in the NCAA Bylaws that would indicate this jeopardizes a girl's amateur status so long as she isn't paid anything beyond the typical expenses of travel, meals, etc. for playing in a tournament. If the winning team doles out $1,000 per girl for winning this event, then that would eliminate amateur status.

Of course we all know that unless everyone is lying, this actual and necessary expenses rule is violated all the time. But form and procedure are the priorities today, substance is a mere annoyance that many blithely dismiss.

 

[wvanalmsick]

How many of these girls are still eligible to play HS ball? Every state has their set of rules pertaining to amateurism. We all know OHSAA stance on this, at least the old-timers remember the goat-rope concerning the new association that was offering the same thing. OHSAA told the guy that it would violate the OHSAA guidelines on amateurism.

Either way it comes out, the college coaches will be split between 2 events. The colleges with a big staff will be good to go.

Joe, you get one educational credit today. I had to look-up "blithely". I learned a new word today.

 

[DougL]

Doug what does the national governing body of softball mean to you ? I have always been curious what peoples perception of the statement is.
Thanks

Interesting question, as long as ASA is the home of the National teams, JO and Women's National Teams and has been so-named by the US Olympic Committee as the National Governing Body of Softball, I am going with them.

 

[Stretch]

In other words, no one signed up yet....

Heard there were 14-17 teams so far.

 

[JoeA1010]

Can I sign my college team up for this $100,000 tournament? That would fund several Florida trips.

 

[WWolff]

How many of these girls are still eligible to play HS ball? Every state has their set of rules pertaining to amateurism. We all know OHSAA stance on this, at least the old-timers remember the goat-rope concerning the new association that was offering the same thing. OHSAA told the guy that it would violate the OHSAA guidelines on amateurism.

Either way it comes out, the college coaches will be split between 2 events. The colleges with a big staff will be good to go.

Joe, you get one educational credit today. I had to look-up "blithely". I learned a new word today.

Not sure about the college coaches being split between two events. last year there was a huge difference in coaches at ASA/USA and PGF Nationals as there was the few years before. The number was something like 10 to 1

 

[CARDS]

ASA is not interested in college coaches attending this event.
It is promoted as an NIT event and a womens national team showcase. Teams will have more freedom with free roistering before the event (just like the mens big events) so, basically you can bring together or build a team for this event.
Below is one of the interviews with the TD where he explains ASA focus with the event. Basically; it is a junior/womens national team showcase not a college showcase. They expect on the teams at 18U that would be attending will have all or most of their ladies already committed to a college thus no need for college coaches to attend.

The PGF event held the same week "will get" the bulk if not all of college coaches. looking for those uncommitted players.
Another reason to scratch your head why ASA would market the event to the teams they did since, if any of these teams had players uncommitted they would be at the PGF event.

I think they would get more interest if the event was an 18O or a womens adult event (as it should be) then they could get the 18UPW and 18O college committed top talent. Someone posted there were 14+ teams committed. Everything I have found says ASA will not release teams entered until the event meets the 24 team min. At that time teams and schedules would be announced. Where is the team list that the 14+ teams are on or, is this an inside report?

Here is info that has been posted many times as a link:

Full Count Softball contacted ASA/USA Softballs Chris Sebren, Director of Championships, and below are his answers related to several topics concerning the JO Cup:
Full Count Softball: Explain the reasons for the event and what the goals are for it to be successful? and how will you gauge success?
Chris Sebren: Currently, this event has been established as a National Invitational Tournament (NIT). We wanted to put on an additional event to make sure that we were getting the best teams and kids in front of our USA Softball Womens National Team Selection Committee and National Team Coaching staff. We have sent invitations to over 60 of the best teams in the country and the most we will accept will be 32 entries. The success of the USA Softball JO Cup will not only be based on the number of teams who participate but also the conversations that come from the communication with the teams overall.
FCS: If this event is a feeder for the Nationals teams, how does this event tie in?
CS: As the National Governing Body of Softball in the United States, it is our objective to make sure that our Women?s National Team Selection Committee and coaches have a chance the see the athletes who are members of ASA/USA Softball and come through our local ASA/USA programs in addition to those who come through our Allied and Affiliated members (NCAA, NFHS).
FCS: What is the format of the event and who is running it? is it all ASA or are you using outside help?
CS: Teams will be placed via blind draw into the brackets and pools. Southern California ASA will serve as the host and will provide the Tournament Director with support from the ASA/USA Softball National Office.
FCS: What was the genesis of the idea to do the event and how did it grow to become what it is today (how long has it been in development)?
CS: This event has been discussed over the last several years to us by travel ball coaches. We received numerous requests to take the lead and establish a tournament that in addition to featuring these elite programs also helps to feed our National Team program. As everyone knows, the potential for softball/baseball to be added to the Tokyo 2020 Olympic Program is still an ongoing decision for the IOC. With the possibility of being reinstated into the Olympic Program, we want to ensure that our Womens National Team Selection Committee has additional opportunities to identify more athletes who may not have been seen. With the success of the "Open Tryout" for the Junior Womens National Team last month, we believe this will provide another great opportunity for these athletes. We?ve received great support and encouragement from several teams and programs and are ready to put on a great tournament that benefits the athletes and programs.
FCS: It?s an interesting, if somewhat unique, concept to pay winning teams? whenever money being paid is involved there are likely concerns? what are the thoughts here about the pros and cons of paying teams?
CS: Obviously the pressure that athletes can feel from this concept is understandable, however the pressure that these athletes receive throughout their recruitment process is very similar. For us, the cash donation back to the participating programs isnt the biggest pro for the tournament, its the fact that these athletes have the opportunity to show what theyve got to our Womens National Team Selection Committee. Only a portion of the money is going to be used to cover tournament expenses with the remaining going back to these programs. All dollars spent will be invested back into the event and those teams who participate, which will only help to grow the concept.
FCS: How did you come up with the payout figures, based on anything in particular?
CS: We looked at the percentages based on the total donation package and created the figures based on what we believed would entice teams and programs to participate.
FCS: How were the teams chosen? what happens if you dont get the needed 24 to 32, is there a back-up list?
CS: Teams were invited based on several prominent ranking systems that are already in place. As I mentioned before we have looked at it from different team numbers from a minimum and maximum number. Thirty-two teams as the maximum has been mentioned to us for several years as being the ideal number for a competition.
FCS: When will the teams be announced?
CS: After our deadline has passed of March 1st we will review the entries, communicate with the teams and then the teams will be officially announced on our USAJOCup.com website.
FCS: What about sponsors, are there outside sponsors involved? How will their money be used assuming the entry fee covers event expenses?
CS: At this point we do not have any outside sponsors. This event has been planned to be self-sufficient and cover all costs including award packages and staff, umpires, etc. If some sponsors wish to come on board, we will take into consideration what they can offer that will benefit the teams, players, and fans.
One reason for the timing, according to Chris Sebren, is that its GOLD championships will be over.
FCS: Perhaps the biggest controversy will be that the event is the same time as PGF Nationals? some will say this is an attempt to take away from their event. Explain your position on timing and scheduling?
CS: Several factors led to the decision to host the USA Softball JO Cup from July 27 ? August 1. Most importantly, the timing is based on our ASA/USA Gold National Championships which is our highest level of JO Championship Play. We needed to schedule this event after our GOLD National Championship so that teams still had the opportunity to play both events. This also gives athletes the opportunity to participate in both while being evaluated by our Women?s National Team Selection Committee at the two tournaments. In addition, the school calendar across the country was taken into consideration.
FCS: Are there specific rules established on what teams can or cant do? for example, can they add outside players for this week? Or do they need to have come up within the organization?
CS: The teams will have to submit a roster ahead of schedule just like any other ASA/USA tournament. We have never restricted where players can or can? come from when submitting a roster during Non-Championship play. This is simply an invitational tournament, so they have some freedom when submitting their rosters.
FCS: Anything else you want to add? Such as the future of the events? will they rotate sites and how will that work?
CS: Our goal is to put on a world class NIT that continues the standard of excellence that ASA/USA Softball has established with our tournaments. Coaches, players and fans know that when they play ASA/USA Softball, theyre going to be playing with the most trained umpires out there while getting the experience and exposure to both collegiate and our National Team programs. With the possibility of softball returning to the Tokyo 2020 Olympics, the encouragement we received from the softball community has helped us to put the concept together and help our National Team development.

 

[SoCal_Dad]

ASA is not interested in college coaches attending this event.
It is promoted as an NIT event and a womens national team showcase. Teams will have more freedom with free roistering before the event (just like the mens big events) so, basically you can bring together or build a team for this event.
Below is one of the interviews with the TD where he explains ASA focus with the event. Basically; it is a junior/womens national team showcase not a college showcase. They expect on the teams at 18U that would be attending will have all or most of their ladies already committed to a college thus no need for college coaches to attend.

ASA wouldn't have chosen that site if they weren't thinking about college coaches. They could have easily chosen a much better facility than Chino Hills, but they wouldn't be near the PGF sites (35-50 min w/o traffic). This site was obviously chosen so college coaches can attend both. They're much closer together than the 110+ miles between ASA's 16G and 18G Nat sites last year.

Teams will have more flexibility to bolster their roster, however I expect they will still have their core players. Anyone that is invited should already have a competitive team. Several ASA and PGF teams already bolster their rosters for Nats with players from teams participating in the other Nat.

The national team aspect is overblown - team selection camps were held 2 months ago and I doubt it will be a factor for the next ones. It's just ASA pimping the national teams again like they have the last 2 years.