"pickle" coverage

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Who should back up the catcher in a run down between 3rd and home?
Is this the pitchers duty or should first base be coming in after any play at first?

 

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1st base usually and then the pitcher if the 1st baseman gets drawn off the plate.

Let me add this... we require our catchers to drive them back to third. This isn't 100% everytime but is the safest bet. Now if the catcher can throw and get the out and we are in position we are setup to do that too. We tell our girls (first baseman) that they are attached to the catcher like a peice of rope. As the catcher goes... she goes with her.

 

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First base, but you generally don't need anyone. C has the ball forcing the runner back to 3rd. C throws to the 3rd baseman, runner is out on the tag.

You want to make 0 - 1 throw, in a run down.

 

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Agreeing with newtson, in an ideal situation, its a tag out by the catcher or one dart throw to 3B or SS covering third. But otherwise we would have the 1B covering home and the pitcher in a backup roll.

 

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Can you guys give me your opinions on why it is first and not the pitcher as the primary back up to the catcher.

 

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Dang, I thought this thread was about Pickledad. Guess Pickle coverage will have to do. LOL

 

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We will use 1B assuming she is able to get there in time, with pitcher there in case of total emergency. We use 1B mainly because if there is going to be an injury with a tag on a runner sliding in, we don't want it to be the pitcher.

I have never been real strong on the one throw rule. If another runner is on the bases and advancing, we will try hard to limit our throws. But if there is only one runner, then I don't emphasize the number of throws. I found over the years that if girls think they have to get it done in one throw, they tend to hold onto the ball too long for fear that an early throw will not retire the runner, and the runner often ends up diving safely back into a base.

We go through the various mechanics of what we want on rundowns, but philosophically we just tell our players that a runner in a rundown is out. We also tell our players that once we have someone in a rundown, I already have her marked down as an out in my head and I'm thinking ahead to the next pitch. That sends a clear message that running someone back to a base where they wind up being safe is never an acceptable result. And although this is the college level, I didn't do it any different all the way down to 12-U.

 

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I've seen two coaches in the last year do a great job at showing the girls the "dead zone" in the baseline when throws should/should not be maid. It seems that once girls understand the dead zone, they feel in control and understand the timing of making the tag or the throw. Once they understand that, it seems like 1 or zero throws become common. BTW, the two coaches that did a great job at this were 10u and 16u coaches and they used the same exact approach to teaching it and both teams went on to execute extremely well in games.

 

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Trip:

Care to share those coaches' definition of the dead zone?

JoeA:

Watched a rundown indoors yesterday where the throw came way too late and player ended up back on first. Can indeed be a liability of stressing only one throw.

 

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Can you guys give me your opinions on why it is first and not the pitcher as the primary back up to the catcher.

Nothing earth shattering for me....usually our 1st basemen are a little more adept at taking throws for put outs and tag plays and they are sometimes better at throwing overhand than some pitchers. If the pitcher is a strong at taking throws and sound at base coverage, I have no problem with her getting involved. But I do agree with Joe, I'd rather an injury occur with my first baseman than with my pitcher, so we teach 1B coverage.

 

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Maybe better worded ... "would rather less chance an injury with a pitcher".

 

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I'm also interested in a description of the "dead zone" from TT.

One of the biggest problems I see is too much juking - the person with the ball does a lot of faking and the runner dances their way back until they can dive into the bag. I prefer the defender goes hard at the runner to make them commit themselves. Tag the runner if they hesitate. Otherwise, it's an easy out with one throw.

A well-executed, classic rundown with players following their throws can be a thing of beauty, but it requires more practice or it will be more apt to break down due to more points of failure. JMHO

 

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Trip:

Care to share those coaches' definition of the dead zone?

JoeA:

Watched a rundown indoors yesterday where the throw came way too late and player ended up back on first. Can indeed be a liability of stressing only one throw.

Sure. Place a bucket 10-12 feet from Home plate parrallel to baseline and another Bucket 10-12 feet further up the line towards 3b. Do the same thing from 3b to home. This defines the two Dead Zones. The idea is that the TAG and or Throws need to occur while runner is in the dead zone while the runners back is turned on the defensive player with the ball. Once the girls understand that they only pull the trigger while runner is in DEAD ZONE you avoid both two many throws and as Joe eluded to exucuting the throw to late and allowing base runners to return back to previous base or worse throwing too late to the advancing base.

DJKepple(Hawks 99 Gold) might want to share how he facilitates this drill in practice, but there is no doubt that once girls understand this both as runners and as defensive players they will execute much higher on both ends.

 

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Thanks Trip. It appears things are working out in Chicago, which makes me smile. Hope we get to see you at some point this summer.

 

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Thanks for sharing the difference with 1B and P covering. That was the only thing I could think of also.

 

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One of the biggest problems I see is too much juking - the person with the ball does a lot of faking and the runner dances their way back until they can dive into the bag. I prefer the defender goes hard at the runner to make them commit themselves. Tag the runner if they hesitate. Otherwise, it's an easy out with one throw.

A well-executed, classic rundown with players following their throws can be a thing of beauty, but it requires more practice or it will be more apt to break down due to more points of failure. JMHO

I agree entirely with this. The juking thing is ridiculous. And like So Cal Dad said, it often ends up with the runner dancing her way back until she dives back safely. The only play on which I allow the silly juking is when we have someone in a rundown between first and second and another runner is off of third ready to go home. Otherwise, no juking, period. You don't need it to get an out and it leads to mistake after mistake. Further, why would you hop along like you're galloping like a horse instead of running at the baserunner? When you have the ball, run hard with the ball up and cut down the distance between the ball and the baserunner! I often see catchers take off after a runner with a couple of jab steps and then a gallop and then some fake throws. Why not just get the ball up and sprint right at the runner? Girls make rundowns WAY too difficult, probably because they didn't spend many a day in the back yard playing pickle (hot box, etc.), learning from their mistakes.

 

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I would agree that it would seem that normally the pitcher and the 1B would be the two possible choices to replace the catcher in a "pickle." Too me, which one does that depends on where the two players where when the "pickle" was initiated. If the pitcher was backing up home and the 1B was the cut-off when the "pickle" developed, I would certainly hope the pitcher would jump in as the replacement. If it is a botched squeeze play that led to the "pickle" I assume 1B would be in the best position to replace the catcher if she had been charging on the bunt.

 

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Maybe better worded ... "would rather less chance an injury with a pitcher".

lol, yeah, that does sound better.

 

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Can you guys give me your opinions on why it is first and not the pitcher as the primary back up to the catcher.

Yeah because if for some reason there ends up being a play at the plate you don't want your ace pitcher getting blown up blocking the plate. A utility player filling in at first base would have alot less impact on your team than losing your pitcher.

 

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Even if you take the injury factor out of it, I still want the 1B making the play. We teach our pitchers how to make a tag and hopefully stay at of harms way, but 1B are usually more adept at making the catch and tag play.