Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Pitch Count....

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I still think, especially at younger ages, to watch the amount of pitches. When my youngest was 8, she pitched maybe 400 a week, 3 times a week. At 9, it went up and so forth. She now pitches anywhere from 100-150 a day 3-4 days a week and then 75-100 for 1-2 days a week. It literally depends on if she has games or not during the week.

As they get older, then the counts go up as their shoulders are more developed.

 

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I agree that it would be a great idea to set pitch limits at the younger ages. Way back when - when DD was playing rec - the league had playing time rules (as it should be) and EVERY girl was strongly encouraged to try pitching. As I remember, the coaches were not that knowledgeable about pitching, but the girls were given lots of positive support and encouragement. The whole idea was to keep them from getting discouraged. At age 11, a lot of the girls simply gave up, and decided they didn't like "failing so much" for lack of a better term. We all know how many stellar 10 year old rec. pitchers there are...

So there was never really a point when these kids reached a pitch limit, because they were rotated into a different position. I think that's a great system. But for the aggressive travel coaches who don't understand the connection between development and winning, pitch counts in young kids (10u) could be a good thing.

 

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I didn't know this would spark such a debate, but I'm glad it did. It's great to hear so many thoughts on this subject!

 

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I know a kid that pitches "A" level fastpitch softball, threw 199 innings in HS this season while playing 29 games. The father spent a couple of thousand on chiropractic repair and the kid is not allowed to pitch for her travel ball team for 4 weeks. Not so much pitch count with girls as it is the numer of innings. On a good weekend of travel ball a #1 or #2 is expected to pitch 3-4 games each, so if you play every weekend for 3 months, then a kid could throw 70% of of a 50 game schedule, the biggest problem is the age of said child. A Senior is prepared to do it and physically able, but a Sophmore or under is not, JMO! If you add 25 games from HS and 3 months travel ball, that's 75 games in 7 months. Want to to try to figure out those innings or the # of pitches??? lol If only every team had a 3 girl rotation for HS season, then the problem would be solved.... once again JMO

 

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Those of you that feel there will be struggles are correct...go back 10-15 years ago when there were only a couple top level teams, and all the new comers were taking their lumps...and many still are, but look how the game has grown!! If you would have prevented new teams from starting the game would be nowhere close to where we are at today...same thing can be said about pitching. No kid is going to put in the time and effort if they know they are only going to get a few innings a summer. If they know they are going to get the pitching time they are going to want to work. JMHO

 

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We need to protect our kids from crazies of all stripes including coaches. The problem with the repetitive stress injuries is that the only cure is utter and complete rest. If a coach throws a kid in 6 games at a weekend tournament he doesn't suffer but a kid might be done for a year. Since softball has far to many governing bodies for a pitch count to work at any practical level. You have to be the shield to protect your dd's.

If she is hurt, stop. It is that simple. Pay attention to the entire body from the foot/ankle/knee/hips/back/shoulder/neck/elbow/wrist and all the muscles in between. No one will protect her except you. (If you do find a coach that pays attention then hang on)

The person that says the underhand motion doesn't cause any harm obviously never pitched at a high level. Every pitch wears down the body including warming up.

Your goal must be that at the end of every season your dd is STRONGER than when she started.

 

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Limiting pitch counts in fastpitch will really take away from and ruin the game in my opinion.

Are there some shoulder and arm injuries occurring in softball pitchers? Sure. But who's keeping track of arm injuries of all the outfielders trying to throw the bomb all the way home on a tag up? What about the catchers railing the ball to second? My first baseman hurt her shoulder throwing home last week.

With the sport getting more and more popular there are more and more girls playing long tournament schedules and all those games are typicall divided between 2-3 pitchers.

There is no crisis, no epidemic of shoulder and arm problems in these girls. Yes, there are some, but can you imagine if all the rules were lifted for boys pitching and no one worried about pitch counts? The waiting rooms would be full of patients for surgery. This problem doesn't exist with the girls.

The bottom line is limiting pitch counts in softball will ruin the game and there is absolutely no reason for it. Just about any boy baseball player can take the mound and pitch. He may not be a great pitcher, but he can do it. You can not take any girl softball player and put her on the mound in softball. It takes a lot of work and commitment to pitch softball and other than travel kids, very few are willing to do that.

Imagine that high school team that is lucky to have one girl that can get the ball over the plate, that has to throw 5 different pitchers like the baseball teams do. It would be a disaster. If pitch limits are implemented, then team A with 4 or 5 decent pitchers will always dominate, because team B, who may be the best group of players ever, only has two good pitchers and can't use them do to limits. Some on here better watch what they wish for.

Of course we want our kids to be healthy, and absolutely we want whats best for the children, but let's not fix a problem that was never a problem to start with.

If every team has to carry 5 or 6 pitchers you may even see an increase in shoulder and arm problems from all the girls being forced to pitch to satisfy some pitching limit rule, that have no training on proper mechanics. If you have a girl that is sore after pitching, fix her mechanics.

Bad idea!

Not hard to find http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1941294/

Just Google NCAA sports activities or even High School for fast pitch for women.

While you are at it Google laxity and carrying angle.....there are differences in male verses female.

Howard

 

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We need to protect our kids from crazies of all stripes including coaches. The problem with the repetitive stress injuries is that the only cure is utter and complete rest. If a coach throws a kid in 6 games at a weekend tournament he doesn't suffer but a kid might be done for a year. Since softball has far to many governing bodies for a pitch count to work at any practical level. You have to be the shield to protect your dd's.

If she is hurt, stop. It is that simple. Pay attention to the entire body from the foot/ankle/knee/hips/back/shoulder/neck/elbow/wrist and all the muscles in between. No one will protect her except you. (If you do find a coach that pays attention then hang on)

The person that says the underhand motion doesn't cause any harm obviously never pitched at a high level. Every pitch wears down the body including warming up.

Your goal must be that at the end of every season your dd is STRONGER than when she started.

Last year during High School my dd pitched just about every inning as a freshman. There were a couple of other pitchers, but no where near her ability. This year we had a freshman come up that wasn't quite up to her, but she was definately a good back up. Her arm was hurt from day one, so her parents got her a shot of cortizone. She pitched in one of our league games, started to peeter out in the 5th inning. The next start she got, she hit her hip on the way through and hurt something in her shoulder. Her doctor told her, since she has been pitching anyway she can finish her year through the pain and they will take another look at the end of the season!! Crazy foolish in my opinion, but her parents are okay with it. Fortunately they haven't pitched her.

However, my dd's travel team has 3 very equal, yet different, in pitching talent pitchers. So none of them are overused, AND they get to play other positions on their team. My dd does get rode during HS, but it has not hurt her at all. Her mechanics are very solid. But she does get rest during travel. IMHO if the mechanics are solid, they shouldn't have any trouble. But, it could hurt a pitcher to NOT be played anywhere else on the field.

 

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Not hard to find http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1941294/

Just Google NCAA sports activities or even High School for fast pitch for women.

While you are at it Google laxity and carrying angle.....there are differences in male verses female.

Howard

In this article it states that with pitcher overuse injuries there is a need for further investigation. Upper extremity injuries account for 33% of game or practice injuries and more specifically, overuse injuries of the shoulder account for only 27% of upper extremity injuries. This calculates to 8.9% of all game or practice injuries. Per the article injury rates per 1000 girls over a 16 year period are between 2.7-4.3 injuries per 1000 girls. Now if only 8.9% of those are overuse injuries, which aren't necessarily all pitchers, then .24 - .38 girls per 1000 are experiencing over use injuries. Even if we assume only 1 in 5 players are pitchers, 2-3 per team, then only 1.2 to 1.9 pitchers per 1000 are experiencing overuse injuries. There is a comment in this article where they interviewed pitchers and 70% report they have had an injury. There is no science here, just girls stating they have had an injury and only 70% of those were from overuse.

This article proves my point exactly. 1 or 2 pitchers per 1000 or even 1 or 2 pitchers per 100 don't warrant even discussing pitching limits!

 

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Yes, but tell that to the travel or college coach that loses their #1 because of a nagging injury. A certain lefty that Howard & I know very well had a shoulder issue around 16u that just wouldn't quit. She & my DD were originally planned to be a duo on the team, but her shoulder told her otherwise. Fortunate for this gal, she healed and had a splendid college career.

I know this gal's parents very well, and there was never any question that her health was being watched VERY close - she simply had the misfortune of a nagging injury. I can say that her mechanics - pitching, throwing and hitting are probably the best I have ever seen in person - just tremendous. Would pitching limits have helped her avoid injury? I doubt it - she is a VERY strong gal, in great shape and I don't think overuse was her issue.

My point is that pitch counts as an absolute governing limit is not always the answer. I am totally against taking "cookie cutter" approaches to fixing issues like this. It COULD be overuse, or a kid could be genetically predisposed to a certain injury/condition. They could be using poor mechanics, or maybe just mechanics that are stressing their joints/tendons incorrectly according to their body type/build. It might just be a temporary growth issue - who knows? Sports medicine is making great strides in researching this stuff, and we know a lot more about why some injuries occur more frequently. The important question, as far as I'm concerned, is why certain kids can pitch all day and another kid only lasts a few innings? Pitch counts in that situation only punishes the kid with no issues, and does nothing to actually help the kid with issues. Before imposing artificial limits, I think we need more research. In the meantime, parents MUST be in total control of their kid's health.

 

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There is nothing more important than the Player/Parent/Coach relationship. There must be complete understanding and open communication amongst all. This not only protects the palyer but this also makes for a stronger team. I'm not in favor of pitch counts but if just a little common sense and good coaching is applied most issues can be avoided (no system is perfect).

As "fairman" stated: "No one will protect her except you..."

 

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http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/3/497.full


When we start working with our hitters we teach them how to throw and use the lower body first. This helps protects their ACL as noted in the article as most females tend to be upper body dominant. It still makes me laugh when you see a girl throw like a girl verses an athlete. How can they be 11 to 14 years old and not have been taught to throw correctly over hand?

Part of the article

?Paradoxically, softball pitchers may pitch six 7-inning games during a weekend tournament, resulting in 1200 to 2000 pitches being thrown during a 3-day period,4,11 whereas baseball pitchers are typically rested for several days before competing10 and only 100 to 150 pitches are thrown in a 3-day period.4,11 The significant difference in the number of pitches thrown between baseball and softball pitchers could be attributed to the pitch count rules that are strictly enforced in baseball and the lack of these rules in official softball leagues. Typically, fewer pitchers are developed for softball than for baseball teams, which could be a result or a cause of a lack of pitch count regulations.4?

?This ratio of male sport injuries (baseball) compared with female sport injuries (softball) is congruent with previous studies that indicated that injury rates for boys are 80% higher than for girls.2 The large population of young baseball and softball athletes, especially considering the high percentage of pitchers, underscores the need to lay the foundation for developing and implementing evidence-based, targeted preventive interventions.?



Howard

 

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http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/3/497.full




This ratio of male sport injuries (baseball) compared with female sport injuries (softball) is congruent with previous studies that indicated that injury rates for boys are 80% higher than for girls.2 The large population of young baseball and softball athletes, especially considering the high percentage of pitchers, underscores the need to lay the foundation for developing and implementing evidence-based, targeted preventive interventions.?



Howard

NO! What are we preventing? 1 or 2 girls in a 1000 overdoing it!