Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Pitchers Arm Rotation After pitch release.

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My D.D. has been messing around with a new pitch. She calls it her "Split Change". All it is is her change up pitch. However after the pitch is released from the hip her arm continues rotating.
I have showed this pitch to several ASA and NSA umpires. Several have even video taped it for clarification and cannot give me an answer.
It's a neat pitch. It realy buckles the batters knees when they see it.
So I guess hear is my question. "After the pitch is released does it matter what the pitcher does with her arm". Or "After the pitch is released from the hip can the pitcher continue the rotation"?
I Mean most to all pitchers have some type of follow thru.

 

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The arm cannot pass the hip again after the release. It sounds like you are speaking of the Ephus pitch, where you backswing, release on the way forward, then continue the arm circle. It is an illegal pitch.

 

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Wait a minute....twenty years ago every girl that wasn't throwing windmill was using this motion and it was legal, it has never been made illegal.

My dd started throwing it when she was 11 just for fun. We would use it a game every now and then and sometimes it was legal and sometimes it was not. She would never throw it the first time when a girl was on base just in case the call went against us but she would throw it a couple of times a weekend and the results were mixed. When it was called illegal I would calmly ask the umpire to tell me why.....they would really get confused because the rule book only talks about the hand not going past the hip twice which this pitch clearly does not. There is a rule about the follow through that is pretty hazy. There is also a rule that a pitcher can not do anything that distracts the batter and there is a the 'God' rule which allows the umpire to make a decision in the best interests of the game. The pitch is so unexpected after firing the ball in all game that the umpire will call it illegal without thinking as to why and then try to justify the call.

Quite frankly both my daughter and I enjoyed these discussion with the umpires some of which were very knowledgable and some hadn't a clue. When it was a legal pitch the other dugout would empty and we'd have a discussion. I've even got in trouble form my own bench while guesting when the head coach didn't know it was coming. Sometimes you can throw it for an umpire in warm-ups and gage their reaction before you throw it it in a game. In PA, USSSA will call it legal but NSA will not. The PIAA umps will go either way. MY dd is in college now but we may never know if its legal or not, her college coach told her to stop fooling around and throw real pitches in spite of just sitting down their best hitter with it.

Oh by the way, we named it the 007 pitch and call it with an OK sign, fingers pointing down.

If she is having fun with it, keep throwing it. You'll get the called on it half the time but when its legal it is the pitch that will talked about. When it is illegal and no one on it is just a ball. When it is called illegal always ask why, the explanations are hilarious. Sometimes it is legal and soooo effective.

Good Luck.

(PS She would allow her arm to finish the rotation and hit her butt with it to prevent it going past her hip twice taking away the only rule in the pitching section that mattered but it would still be called illegal for going past her hip twice....but it was only a ball and we'd now know if it was legal or not IN THAT GAME)

 

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We call ours Mr. Magic, as long as she stops at her butt its legal

 

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Bretman needs to get on board here to give us the legal side of things but to clarify my understanding of the rules the pitch as I understand it would be illegal. With all do respect, no college coach worth a grain of salt would condone using a deceptive pitch. It's a matter of integrity in the spirit of competition and one of those unwritten rules if it falls into a grat area. To my knowledge the pitch explained is illegal and some umpires just don't know everything that's in the book if they seldom experience it.

Having said this, it s fun o watch bu in most circles unwanted. If you plan to throw this pitch, do it in the backyard for fun to mess with Dad's head. lol

 

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You can release the pitch on the first forward pass as long as you do not complete the arm circle after. The hand is only allowed to make on forward pass by the hip.
Not counting the pass after the backswing.

 

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My D.D. has been messing around with a new pitch. She calls it her "Split Change". All it is is her change up pitch. However after the pitch is released from the hip her arm continues rotating.
I have showed this pitch to several ASA and NSA umpires. Several have even video taped it for clarification and cannot give me an answer.
It's a neat pitch. It realy buckles the batters knees when they see it.
So I guess hear is my question. "After the pitch is released does it matter what the pitcher does with her arm". Or "After the pitch is released from the hip can the pitcher continue the rotation"?
I Mean most to all pitchers have some type of follow thru.

no...................................not illegal unless she rotates all the way around again, that's the easy and accurate answer.

 

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'...no college coach worth a grain of salt would condone using a deceptive pitch. It's a matter of integrity in the spirit of competition and one of those unwritten rules if it falls into a grat area.'


All pitcher does is work and work to make a change-up look like a fastball or a rise-ball look like a high strike or drop look like a low fastball...all that our pitchers work on is deception. A good pitcher will vary her timing of her delivery, sometimes she'll shake off a sign just to get the hitter thinking, sometimes she through quick, sometimes she'll slow it down..... Heck they even throw near strikes to try get the umpire to ring one up. Speed and location will only take them so far, deception will keep them there for a long and wining career.

Can this pitch be held in contempt by the softball gods because it isn't fair or in the spirit of the game? Really?

FACT: There is NO rule that mandates a windmill delivery.

 

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Fairman, nobody said there was a rule mandating the windmill. A player is more than welcome to pitch sllingshot. They just cannot proceed to windmill after the ball is released.

 

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Thank you all for the responses. All the responses has made my understanding clear as mud..We are not going to use this pitch during games just for the reason of not stiring the fire with the umpires. Once you stoke there fire everything will be balls. I will try to video tape it and let you see it. Obviously without her team shrt on . LOL Thanks.

 

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Post some video!

 

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I'm thinking about the mechanics of this, she does her wind-up, and the ball is released at a speed of about 40 MPH on the first go-round, and the arm continues around, but doesn't continue all the way around, but stops the circle just before the 2nd trip by her hips. In order to stop the circle, Her hand slaps her butt to make sure she doesn't come by the hip the 2nd time & what you have is a floating change-up that is coming across the plate at the time the batter is just setting her "load" if the batter loads.
Basically the batter isn't really ready for this.
From my understanding of pitching rules, there isn't anything illegal about this.
Don't we coaches teach our girls to vary the timing of the pitchers' pitches to ensure the batters and runners don't time her up perfectly? Isn't that the main reason for the quick pitch?

I would LOVE to see this video.
Would love to chat about this with some umpires.

 

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She puts her glove and ball to her chest..pauses. starts her wind up and soft pitches it. her arm them continues and stops high in the air..Yes its a quick pitch. She has enough speed to get that over the plate on a straight line with only a little drop to it. She doesnt even make or need to make the second rotation and smack her backside.

 

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She puts her glove and ball to her chest..pauses. starts her wind up and soft pitches it. her arm them continues and stops high in the air..Yes its a quick pitch. She has enough speed to get that over the plate on a straight line with only a little drop to it. She doesnt even make or need to make the second rotation and smack her backside.

Thats basically a slingshot. Legal.

 

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She puts her glove and ball to her chest..pauses. starts her wind up and soft pitches it. her arm them continues and stops high in the air..Yes its a quick pitch. She has enough speed to get that over the plate on a straight line with only a little drop to it. She doesnt even make or need to make the second rotation and smack her backside.

I agree with Lewam. Based on this description, perfectly legal.

 

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DD used to throw sling shot along with windmill at a younger age. It can work on unexperienced players but as you get older and play elite competition they simply dont fall for those type of gadgets. We simply dropped it in 12u. It was fun while it lasted.

 

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Wawsdad

My dd has thrown this pitch a ton. The conversations with the umpires have always been respectful and never has an umpire tightened the zone in revenge. Most have been amused and it catches their interest...just when they thought they had seen it all something new shows up and they have to stud the rules. We actually had umpires stop by her warm-ups and asked to see it and off they go to discuss the ins and outs of the pitch. I've also had an umpire decide after the game and some reflection that it was a legal pitch even through he called it illegal.

Don't be a scaredy-cat let her throw it. It gets mind-numbiing boring throwing 100's of FB's and yes it is very effective on an aggressive college bound hitter that thinks they can take it deep.

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't just like every other pitch in her arsenal. Sometimes its legal and sometimes it is not. it is always fun for her to throw and then see what happens. Since she controls when she throws it, never throw it for the first time when runners are on and it is a great third out pitch for the chaos it causes in the other dugout and then kids are looking for it. She expects it to be called illegal and it never through her off of her game.

(By the way she also threw the slingshot and had just as many illegal calls. It happens, move on.)

 

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FWIW....Here is the high school rule:

6-1-4e: The pitcher shall not continue to wind up after taking the forward step or after the ball is released.

NOTE: Continuation of the windup is considered any action that, after the ball is released, causes the arm to continue to rotate past the shoulder.

And, the ASA rule:

6-3-M: The pitcher shall not make another revolution after releasing the ball.

Violation of either rule is an illegal pitch.

BTW.....Neither set of pitching rules makes any mention of "number of times past the hip" as a requirement of the pitching motion.

 

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so its illegal because she releases the ball and continues to rotate past the shoulder but not the hips... So past the shoulder is the key? I think I have seen this pitch before and Brentman cleared it up..... I think? lol

 

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Brentman cleared it up..... I think? lol

I am not 100% sold. Allow me to be the person to split hairs.
Let us define the word "revolution" as it is used in this rule. A revolution has a starting point and a finishing point. When an object moves in a circular path & has returned to its starting position, that is one complete revolution. Stopping at any point along the way, & a revolution has not occurred.
Therefore, if the ball is released with the arm aiming straight down from her shoulder, then according to this understanding, that arm may continue its circular path with the shoulder as the axis all the way around in a circular motion, but cannot complete one full revolution. Maybe this is where the "hips" presumption came in, since the pitcher's' hip is supposed to be where the ball is released, right? Therefore, according to a literal translation of this rule, the pitcher can in fact release the ball at her hip, continue her pitching hand all the way around again, as long as she stops this circular path at a point short of where it started (after release).
I certainly do not imply that Bretman is wrong. I simply an inferring that the rule leaves too much for interpretation in its current vague state and that the "slingshot" pitch is legal as long as a complete revolution does not occur (after release).

I too have seen this...recently in fact, and in can put an unsuspecting hitter on her heels.