Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Pitchers "Stuff"

[STORM02]

So I have a 14 y.o. pitcher and we recently put her on the radar gun for the first time in 4-years of pitching. Here is a breakdown of her pitches and consistent speeds.

FB 48mph
Flip 28 mph GOOD movement
Circle 36 mph AVG movement
Rise 42 mph AVG movement

She has good control on her locations too. I'm also pretty grounded so when I describe movement I'm not over exaggerating.
Based on just these numbers would you classify her as having good our great stuff compared to other pitchers?

Just trying to get an idea before we explore more demanding travel teams next year.

 

[lewam3]

So I have a 14 y.o. pitcher and we recently put her on the radar gun for the first time in 4-years of pitching. Here is a breakdown of her pitches and consistent speeds.

FB 48mph
Flip 28 mph GOOD movement
Circle 36 mph AVG movement
Rise 42 mph AVG movement

She has good control on her locations too. I'm also pretty grounded so when I describe movement I'm not over exaggerating.
Based on just these numbers would you classify her as having good our great stuff compared to other pitchers?

Just trying to get an idea before we explore more demanding travel teams next year.

FB 48 mph- if she can spot these on "the black" that's good, but the speed is pretty average, maybe a few MPH below average.
Flip and Circle are both change ups, so I think the 36 is better. 28 is just too darn slow, and batters can "reload" on that. As far as movement on these are concerned the object on a change up is not movement per se, but fooling the batter on timing.
And riseball at 42? keep working on her mechanics and spin on that. A riseball really isn't doing anything until she is throwing that pitch minimum 55-56 mph. It's a physics phenomenon thats been explained on this forum before.
At 14, she may be just be hitting her growth spurt (puberty) that's when girls she the major rise in her speed. DD went from high 40's to mid 50's in those 18 months, so keep encouraging DD. The coaches on these travel teams will be the ones who will let you know if she's fit for these teams! Good luck, and btw-the above comments are strictly my humble opinion...

 

[daboss]

lewam3 pretty much nailed things for you. I agree with their assessment.

From a pitching instructor's standpoint I believe your honesty in your numbers helps answer your questions. As far as a change up, we usually are shooting for a 25% to 35% difference in speed as in the "effective" category with the backhand flip normally the one that will get you the more effective 35% compared to her fastball. At her age a 48mph fastball within 14u or younger still will be aided by careful spotting of the pitch. In a competitive high school program she may struggle pitching to the more experienced older hitters. Of course, painting the black at the knees will help her arsenal. Her fastball at 14 yrs old needs to be at or near 70% accuracy while her change up would hopefully be 70% or better----------a bonus if it to could be spotted. The riseball speed is simply too slow and probably won't be very effective. The good news is; she probably hasn't reached her full potential yet. Many average pitchers don't achieve it till 16yrs old or after. I believe the riseball is one of the most difficult to throw but some girls just make a fool of me. lol.

We don't know what skill level you plan to pursue. For the most part we can only assume she is in the average range for her age and many teams survive very well with average pitchers. I say test the waters with an open mind and see what happens. If she really wants to develop her pitches and continue striving for a higher level of play, find a team that will let her hone her skills and actually use her pitches throughout the season. Making a higher skill level team as the #3 or #4 pitcher that will see very little circle time would simply be a waste of time if you think about it. Good news is; she will probably continue to improve. It's anyone's guess if she'll advance out of the average level and become a top tier pitcher before she is finished playing the game.

 

[STORM02]

Good answers, ty

 

[FastBat]

FB 48mph
Flip 28 mph GOOD movement
Circle 36 mph AVG movement
Rise 42 mph AVG movement

Are you saying she has two different change-ups? Or is that circle more like a curve? I agree, a change 25-35% slower is best. To be effective, a change would be thrown with her body moving as fast as her FB. The best change-up is one that looks like a fastball; the worst change-up is one that looks like a change-up.

IMHO, she should be able to throw all pitches as fast as her FB, except her change.

They need speeds of a minimum of 55 mph, for the rise to move, or at least to get that "magnus effect" for the rise. Make sure she has an honest rise spin or she is probably just leaning back for a high FB, which can be very effective, but it's just not a true rise.

Also, when going to tryout's, most coaches love to see speed. I don't know what 14u travel team pitchers are throwing at, but top tier 12u pitchers are throwing mid-to-high 50's. I'm not saying they wouldn't consider a pitcher that is slower, I think it would be smart, but I'm just sharing what I have experienced. Speed is something they notice first for obvious reasons. Good luck!

 

[raidian70]

At the OHSFSCA clinic this weekend, Sue Enquist stated that for 14u, an average pitcher is 46-49 and a top pitcher is 52-55.

 

[SAmMaydayMalone]

I don't know what 14u travel team pitchers are throwing at, but top tier 12u pitchers are throwing mid-to-high 50's.

...just ask their parents. I think I'll believe what Coach Enquist said about speed this past weekend, she might know what she's talking about.

Don't be discouraged be these comments here. If your daughter wants to play for a more competitive team, the best thing to do is to go to the tryouts. You and her will see for yourself what it takes to be on one of these teams. Maybe she's ready, maybe she's not, but at least it will give you both an idea of where she needs to get to.

Reach for the stars!

 

[jt7663]

Our Team consists of 12 year olds & our 3 pitchers Throw 55-58 -- Two throw a ScrewBall in addition to FB consistently for strikes & one has three pitches FB, Screwball & Two Change ups in the 35 mph range. If she's serious visit a good pitching coach 2-3 x a week and work hard.

 

[longball00]

Go check out the scores from the ODM Combine at Banditfest to get a feel for what top pitching speeds look like. They don't list grad years, but there were a lot of 2020's, and 2021's that tested. Pitch speeds ranged from 54-63 mph. Now granted, that is not game speed, but just an idea of what is out there. Also, a good way to measure where you need to explore playing is to get in one of the Live hitting/pitching sessions that go on over the break, and see how she does against different hitters.

 

[tjsmize3]

there were a lot of 2020's, and 2021's that tested. Pitch speeds ranged from 54-63 mph.

That's exactly in line with what we are seeing at 14u. 54 mph even with good movement has been hit very hard from the experience we had over the fall. I would have to say the majority of the bell curve falls at 57-59 mph for a team's workhorse pitchers if they are successful.

 

[wpaguy]

That's exactly in line with what we are seeing at 14u. 54 mph even with good movement has been hit very hard from the experience we had over the fall. I would have to say the majority of the bell curve falls at 57-59 mph for a team's workhorse pitchers if they are successful.

Tom, what are some of the elite 2021 and 2022 pitchers hitting in your opinion. I have limited exposure to the OH scene, but recall last year , that Wizards , Hurricanes , Lasers, Storm and your Outlaw team had some pitchers hitting the upper range 57,58 ..etc...I understand movement is equally important , but at the same time 60 + turns heads ...right ?

 

[coachjwb]

I am sure there's a few out there, maybe it's changed recently and I don't see as many games as some of you, but I personally have never seen a 12U pitcher that was above say 57-58, with the average on some of the top teams in Ohio being much closer to 50, at least a few years back when I was coaching Lasers/Ice teams at that age level. And 60 is still pretty glorified air for 14U's ... I have seen a couple that I would guess were pretty close to that, but there aren't as many as I have seem some claim there to be.

To the original poster ... Storm ... agree with lewam that those are probably fairly average, as well as with the notions that if she can change her speeds that effectively and hit her spots consistently that she can still be a very good pitcher, and that if she keeps working on it and growing a little, she might also be able to add a lot of speed. That speed would not get you on a top level 14U team today, but don't give up either. My DD was probably around that speed at the same age, never played in one of the "top" travel organizations, and never got over 57-58, but still had a very successful D3 college career that is both one of hers and mine's top memories.

 

[FastBat]

Something to remember with speed is, you would have to measure every pitcher with the same device, with the same person using the device, to get truly comparable speeds. When someone asks me what my dd's pitching speed is I usually just say I don't know. Then when she goes to tryouts and they say, she pitch's XX speed, I don't agree or disagree, because if they clocked 8 kids that day, it's comparable to where her speed ranks with those pitchers.

I also am not trying to discourage anyone, but I was shocked the first time I heard the "need for speed" thing. The next time I heard it, I knew it was coming, I was ok with it. The first time I heard my dd wasn't throwing hard enough, I told my dd's pitching coach, my dd was going to not focus on pitching so much, because she wasn't as good as the other pitchers! I'm so blessed the pitching coach said, "She's not quitting, she works too hard! See you tomorrow at her lesson!" I was more easily discouraged then.

 

[FastBat]

...just ask their parents. I think I'll believe what Coach Enquist said about speed this past weekend, she might know what she's talking about.

That's not my kid I'm talking about! I respect Coach Enquist, but there is a small percent of teams at 12u level in Ohio, maybe 5 or even a few more teams, that have pitchers hitting speeds of mid-to-upper 50's.

 

[coachjwb]

Just to clarify ... here's what was quoted above as to what Coach Enquist said ...

At the OHSFSCA clinic this weekend, Sue Enquist stated that for 14u, an average pitcher is 46-49 and a top pitcher is 52-55.

So 14U and not mid to upper 50's ...

 

[STORM02]

Good answers, this has been very helpful. She's survived pitching ibn her travel and middle school teams for the last couple years with good results because she mixes up speeds and is pretty good about hitting her spots. Of course everyone wishes for more speed lol. Unfortunately she's 5ft and probably about done growing. So looks like location is where she's going to continue to be where she makes her money.

On a different subject... If it takes speeds in the 50s to really get the rise ball to work, what's a good pitch other than changeup to start to develop with her speeds?

 

[cobb_of_fury]

On a different subject... If it takes speeds in the 50s to really get the rise ball to work, what's a good pitch other than changeup to start to develop with her speeds?

I'd have her work on a drop - it doesn't require as much speed and even if it doesn't work sometimes the pitch is down my daughter lived on this pitch through 14's

If she's working she will do fine - unfortunately there are a lot of coaches out there that only see speed - because its a lot easier to quantify and work with

 

[SAmMaydayMalone]

I may need to start a radar gun calibration company...sounds like there might be a lot of business.

 

[tjsmize3]

I may need to start a radar gun calibration company...sounds like there might be a lot of business.

Let's just clarify the discussion. The average pitching speed is going to vary significantly depending on the level of play at any age group. You cannot define a meaningful average of all 14u pitchers (or pitchers at any age group) without specifying the level: Rec all-star, travel b, high school, travel a, elite regional, elite national, etc... For those who are able to speak for both their own experience, as well as everyone else's it might be hard to convince them of the true speeds being seen at higher levels, but I can tell you that we faced a pitcher from the Beverly Bandits Futures 12u last year who threw 60 mph consistently in warmups and in the game. That same radar gun had our pitchers throwing on the lower end sometimes of what we expected last year so I'm going to say we were probably getting pretty honest readings. You have a poster on this thread with a 14u daughter throwing 60+ mph so it is not the rare event or mis-calibrated gun, as some are implying, to see 60 mph at this age group, let alone upper 50s. I do think, however, that the number on the radar gun is going to vary less due to the calibration and more with the tournament or event you choose to use it at. I'm pretty confident in our radar gun and the numbers I posted earlier.

Secondly, to the OP... your daughter's success will always be defined more by her knowledge of pitching than by the radar gun. I have seen pitchers with "sub elite" speed dazzle at some pretty high level events because of their ability to: (1) Throw any pitch to any location (2) Throw any pitch at any count, (3) Have a true understanding of "setting up" a hitter. Sure, your change up may be killer, but if they know that by the 6th inning and we have a situation and a hitter set up for the up and in fastball, can you take the challenge and deliver it with a full count?... that's what wins games... not a speed on a radar gun.

Lastly, there are plenty of pitchers that get D1 opportunities with a 58-60 mph pitching range, but just usually not at the higher level schools and less as a starter (more as a situational type pitcher). It's not that the coaches have "forgotten" something or "don't understand" something... it's because the highest level hitters are so good at what THEY do, that it is just hard to beat them at lesser speeds (even with good location and movement). Again, at 14u, if you want to beat the best programs out there, you better have a girl in the circle with good pitch selection, good location and throwing 57-59 on average... less gets hit way too hard. Now at the high school level, a girl who really understands how to pitch and set hitters up, but may have just average speed can be extremely successful. Keep finding ways to challenge your daughter irregardless of what the radar gun says and if she is a gamer, she will rise to the challenge and find ways to win games.

 

[brownsfan]

Unfortunately she's 5ft and probably about done growing.

As my daughter's former coach would say...that's an excuse . Have you seen Meghan Prince out of Kentucky? She's small and can flat out bring it. If she uses her legs properly, she'll gain speed. She where she lands, is it a full 8'? If not, then work towards it and learn to drive the front half.