Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Pitching Style

[default]

Just started with my DD on trying to learn to pitch. Have been pitching 3 nights a week since Aug.
Started out more towards the "leap / drag" style. About a month ago started seeing a pitching coach who teaches "stepping" style. Was just wanting to get some opinions on both styles.

 

[default]

Go 2 Go 2----great topic!!! ? I think you have nailed it yourself when you say "styles".

Neither is right or wrong---just what is best for your girl.

From what I have read and observed myself, (in general)~ "leapers-and-draggers" are usually smaller/slighter girls who use this jump out and speed to generate more power. ? "Steppers" seem to be larger/more muscular girls who have more actual arm strength. ?(Now, these are just generalizations, not absolutes, so y'all can put down yer rotten tomatoes. )

A great article that discusses this very topic is found on http://www.pitchsoftball.com/Page5.html

In fact, the entire site where I found this is VERY helpful, and explained in everyday terms that even I can understand. ? ?Check it out --- ?http://www.pitchsoftball.com/default.asp

Enjoy!!!

 

[default]

I would agree with katjoebenmom. ?As you stated, style, but which is right is the one that works for her, as long as her mechanics are correct. ?You see the same thing when it comes to batting linear vs rotational and ect. ?In every case I maintain it is what works for the player, not just what the coach wants to teach. ?

Without getting into a a tomatoe or mud slinging duel, here is as an example. Some coaches teach only one way to pitch a change-up. ?However, there are many, many ways to pitch a very effective and great change up. ?However, what works for one may not be the best for another for many various reasons. ?That is why I ask the girls to try it and let us see how it works, then we will work on another way, if it will work better. ?Once we find a style and pitch grip that work and she is comfortable with then we work on perfecting it. ?I always do it this way with every girl I attempt to teach, since everyone is different and their bodies work differently.

It is my sincere belief that no coach is 100% correct in whatever they are coaching or teaching. ?I also believe that every player will take some great advice from everyone and apply what works for her, and this is the best of all the information. ?As a coach and instructor, if I can impart some help, I am very happy, not that she has to do it exactly the way I say, but take my information and add it to what she has been taught from others and then use my added information to be a better pitcher. ?If that is the case then I feel that I have succeded. The same is true for the instructors before and those that come after me if that is the case. ?There are some great coaches and instructors out there, but it still boils down to what helps and works for the player ?that is the always the most important or at least it should be. ?

Go 2 Go 2, I think you are doing and outstanding job with your DD by investigating and trying different styles and ect for her. ?Both of those styles have their own advantages but what works best for her is the most important, and as she gets older and more experience and size, it may even change. ?However, I would say that ?both you and she are going to be very successful with pitching and coaching, because you are both willing to learn and search what is best for her. My only advice would be just be aware of any coach or instructor that says it must be his/her way or his/her style, and that is the only way. ?Mechanics yes, style no. ?Great post and great job. ?

Good luck and I am sure you both will do great. ?

 

[default]

I agree and disagree. And let me preface this with 2 things: I am not a pitcher so I don't pretend to know something I cannot do myself AND my DD sees Bill Hillhouse <www.houseofpitching.com> for lessons. I have a moderate baseball background and have really began to understand softball pitching from Hillhouse's teaching. By his own admission, he's never played baseball (only fastpitch) so, what he teaches is from his own experience and what he does at his games. Yes, my DD and I have ventured to see his games during the summer and WOW is all I can say. One thing Bill stresses to people is that there IS right and wrong in pitching. It's not as subjective as you may think. There are style choices a pitcher makes but also things they MUST do. There is a reason why all pitchers who are the best in the world use the 'leap/drag' method. One similarity in overhand and underhand throwing I've noticed from watching and listening to DD's lessons is... power comes from the legs. Just as a baseball pitcher generates his power waist down, so do softball pitchers. There is a reason a knuckleball pitcher (Tim Wakefield) steps off the rubber and Josh Beckett EXPLODES off the rubber. One wants power, one does not. And if you looke at the ELITE pitchers in the world of softball, they are all in the same positions at various points in their motion. There is no disputing that. There's also no disputing that power (male or female, overhand/underhand) is generated from the legs in those who throw correctly. You simply cannot achieve this power by 'stepping'. This is why outfielders get a running start when throwing home. For sure you can find a pitcher(s) who have achieved success by 'stepping'. But, if you read Hillhouse's articles on his website, he's very very very right in saying our ideas of 'success' have been diminished. There is reason the ELITES in the world do the same things, and the 'very goods' do not do them.

CC

 

[default]

Bill Hillhouse or any pitching coach style is not the right one for everyone. I took my dd to Hillhouse up in Toledo once and his style was not even close to the style our daughter uses. It actually took a few trips to our pitching coach to get her straighten back out. Her mechanics where off by trying his style. Believe me Im not saying dont see him or he is no good by any means, lord knows he is one of the best. But it comes down to the style and what the pitcher is most comfortable with, along with being solid in her basic mechanics.

We have tweeked a little here and there to find a little more power or more drop to her pitch,or which way works better for the change up,ect.......
She has seen other pitchers at tournaments or high school games. Tried to immilate (yes I know i totally killed that word) some of their gimmicks, but it always comes down to the pitching method she has felt best with. It works for her. She had pitched 10u this past summer and is now been working at the 12u distance and bigger ball. Kept the same style and actually has picked up some speed on her pitch.

Bob Pelle, whom is well known across the land, has his own thoughts on styles also. Bob believes that girls on the eastern part of the U.S. is being taught wrong and that the Western part of the States are better taught with his (and their) new method. He came to Bellevue last winter and was teaching the girls the Western style. Had some good advice and showed us some very good warm up drills. We did take some things from his clinic.

Basically is there a right or wrong way? Different styles, yes, different thinking,yes. What ever works for your daughter and long as her mechanics are strong, of course many hours of practice, is the best medicine.
Our pitching coach last year worked and worked and worked on our dd`s mechanics and told us it would be up to our dd to find whats best for her. Learning different pitches came later.
This is just my view and I might be sounding foolish, LOL! Hey a1sdad,am I somewhat in the ballpark???

 

[default]

I have to agree with cluelesscoach. There are 2 types of basic mechanics for fastpitch softball. The right way and the wrong way. While some people can have some success with different "styles" the best of the best ALWAYS drive out big and hard to maximize power from the lower body. Just look at the human body and compare the arm muscles to those in the hips, [butt], and thighs. With out the leg drive you short yourself the power in those muscles.

 

[default]

Yep, clueless is not clueless. If you don't use your legs, you are only half pitching.

Hillbilly. You are right about Hillhouse's "style" not being for everybody, but he has always talked about the differences between "style" and "absolutes." Keeping the ball hidden in the glove without a big backwards armswing is his "style." He talks about the advantages of his "style". My DD doesn't like that so much, she likes the arm swing, a la Jenni finch. However, the absolutes must be the same. The body position, the follow-thru, etc. You may not like his "style" but the "absolutes" are what they are.

 

[default]

I agree about some of his thoughts and absolutes as you mentioned Ringer. It wasnt that we didnt like his style, it was it just wasnt for us. He reconstructed her arm mechanics and tweeked her stance. Took us a while to get her straightened back out where her pitching coach taught her.
My daughter thinks like yours. She likes the Jenni Finch arm swing also and has stuck with it. Hillhouse`s style just didnt work for her or feel comfortable.
Again he is good,or he wouldnt be flying all over the country making that big money. LOL! He was very friendly and easy to talk to!

Again I could be off somewhat with my thinking, many others can explain it better than I can, but as long as her pitching coach is happy with her style and mechanics then we are good.

I`ll haft to catch up with this thread later. I`m stuck taking the wife and kids out of town this weekend and must pack >

Good stuff on here. Looking foward to seeing this later on.

 

[default]

Great post Lake Erie Hillbilly,

I agree and would suggest that if any pitcher get the opportunity to enter a clinic with Bob Peele it is one that is well worth the money. ?I personally think he is one of the best, and does an outstanding job of relating the information to the girls. ?

As with everything that has been said, I would totally agree that mechanics are a must, but to say every one has to have the same style is a different matter. ? Also, I for one believe that male and female pitching is different also. ?Even the pitching game rules are different so I would not compare a male and a female pitcher and expect to get the same results. ?

As Mr. Gump would say, "that is all I am going to say about that", since I did have more written but decided to cut it. ?I don't want to start a debate.

I don't like argument, in the least, so everyone can decide for themselves but most importantly please do decide what you feel is best for you dd. ?That is what really matters. ?

Good Luck.

 

[default]

I'm not familiar with all the pitching styles but in my area there are basically two styles taught. Before my dd began taking pitching lessons I went to many tournaments and looked at which style was successful. One style seemed good for the younger age groups but seemed to disappear by the u16/u18 age groups. Another way to gather info to make your decision is to find out which local high school age pitchers go to which pitching coaches and see who's style is most successful. In my local area there serveral pitching coaches teaching two styles and by high school one style totally dominates the other. Do some research before you send your dd to a pitching coach, just because something is successful at u8 - u14 doesn't mean it will be at u16 and up.

 

[default]

There is a misconception between the leap/drag and the ones that just step. ?Both are using there legs to drive forward off the mound, and both will drag the toe, one will just be doing it a lot more aggressively than the other.

Someone stated in an earlier post, and I agree 100%, it has alot to do with physical stature. ?Smaller framed, or tall and lean, pitchers will usually be leap/drag and larger framed girls will have a tendency to be steppers. ?

Most of this has to do with timing issues. ?The arm cannot start its downward motion until the front foot has touched the ground to allow for the resistance needed to bring the arm downward. ?Larger frame girls will usually be slower in the initial start of there delivery, and the power will be generated on the backside of their arm rotation, that is why it is important to get that front foot down as quicly as possible. ?Smaller frame pitchers have a tendency to work in the opposite.

 

[default]

OK, so not to muddy the waters here - DD was and still is leap and drag. Her problem was she developed a nasty leap which she started getting called for (not that illegal pitches are ever called consistently but that's another thread). Pitching coach altered her style to kick back leg across the rubber. I guess there are variations on any method.

 

[default]

Many good posts. My dd started when she was 8, have been to many so called pitching coaches. I think the proper wording is , just because you pitched in high school or college doesn't make you a pitching coach. 1. Did they learn the correct methods , and 2. Can they Teach. All I'll say is be careful of pitching coaches .. My dd almost ruined her arm being shown how to throw a drop ball at a young age. I think earlier someone posted www.pitchsoftball.com Read the section on pitching coaches. This should be a mandantory reading site for anyone with a young pitcher. My dd's style is not like Hillhouse's, but I found him to be one of the best to learn how to throw a drop and rise correctly.

 

[default]

Thanks everyone for the posts. I am new to all of this, but trying to gather info and learn all I can about this addicting sport. My DD is young (9), but after a long and great run this year in tournaments, she (along with her parents) have found a deeper love and appreciation for the game. She said she wanted to pitch. I explained the work and dedication that it would take, and
that I would help her all I could. She's has started to see this and still willing to put the time in. Although I would like her to come ask me more, rather than I asking,"do you think you should pitch tonight". But she agrees and doesn't complain.

Back to the styles. She is tall 4'11"/ 80lbs (we think she looks like a praying mantis). She seems to have great speed and power both ways, at least that's what we've been told. The main problem we are having is a consistent miss right (inside on a rh batter) 2 ft or so. From what I'm
seeing the arm looks tight, the circle looks great, but the bringing of the hip with the high knee follow through is leaving her in between open and closed at release. Is this a common issue with the stepping style? She went from having a nice sort of "C" shaped drag mark (and a worn out pair of cleats) to no drag mark and a deep hole at the rubber. We just didn't seem to have that issue the other way. Maybe it's just a timing thing and with more work it will click? Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read and post.

 

[default]

a1sdad: I'm curious about what YOU think pitching "rules" have to do with the subject? I had the same question for Hillhouse when we started and was told this: The rules for male and female pitching at the INTERNATIONAL level is identical. NCAA and ASA use the International rule. Where we are fortunate is Hillhouse is one of the few male pitching instructors who actually pitches, and has pitched (and continues to pitch) Internationally. Therefore, he teaches under the international rules. For sure there are men's leagues where there is virtually no rules regarding the pitchers and some would also argue there are female leagues where nothing is called too! But, the reality is, High School, ASA, NSA, USSSA, etc. all have different 'rules' to their pitching. These rules should not effect the "absolutes" as described by Hillhouse. Even though DD is in High School and is allowed to 'modify' her pitching under those rules, she doesn't do it and sticks to what she will use in ASA and NCAA.

LakeErie, I understand where you're coming from. Making any changes is difficult to pitching and many don't want to put the time into do it. All I can say, in defense of Bill on this subject is, I've never asked a question that he didn't have a legitimate, logical answer for as to WHY something had to be done a certain way. He is very adamant that if he didn't do things the way he does, then he himself would have never gotten to where he did in his pitching. As I stated earlier, pitchers can have a good career doing things a certain way but, our ideas of what a good career is may be drastically different.

cc

 

[default]

While this statement is TRUE (assuming ISF, International Softball Federation rules):

"The rules for male and female pitching at the INTERNATIONAL level is identical."

This statement is FALSE:

"NCAA and ASA use the International rule."

Both NCAA and ASA have some significant differences from the ISF pitching rules. If you remember the World Cup games from last summer, some of the American pitchers had problems complying with the ISF rules used in the tournament, resulting in numerous illegal pitch calls before they finally adjusted.

Further, ASA rules for men are quite different than their pitching rules for women and thus are radically different from the ISF rules.

 

[default]

Bretman...

To what 'significant differences' do you refer to that are different from the ISF, ASA, and NCAA rules? While I don't doubt you, I was only trying to state that the majority of people believe men/women play under different rules at all levels. This is simply not true. For sure there are probably some differences in ISF vs. ASA rules but none that effect the mechanics of pitching like the ability to 'step back' or crow hop. It seems that 99% of the people seem to associate male pitching with crow hopping and females playing under more restrictive rules. My overall point was that in the upper levels (not beer league city leagues) the rules are the same for males and females therefore this notion of 'rules being different' is not a valid argument.

cc

 

[default]

Clueless, ?

Thank you for writing and I am sure you and Hillhouse know much more about the international rules than I do, so I wont even bother to go there. ?I really don't think most of the girls I coach, expect or even want to go that level so I am not too concerned about, but you make some good points. ?

However, back to the more familiar rules that I am concerned and I will just ask a few questions and not even comment on differences, since I assume most people can understand what I mean. ?Can a male pitcher be as effective and pitch the same if he had to keep both feet in contact with the rubber at the windup? (ASA) Would he pitch the same if had to keep the drag foot in contact with the ground through the entire pitch? ?Would he pitch the same if he did not have all the upper body strength along with the legs? ?Does the male pitcher use tense muscle power and explode totally off the ground, with both feet at times in the air and is it still a legal pitch? ?Some of these questions I don't even know if are still legal but if they are it should cause most people to stop and think that just maybe there is a difference. ?

I am not trying to argue or downgrade anyone in any way, since I am sure Hillhouse, you and many, many others are much better at pitching and coaching that I am. ?However, I will also say the rules are or were different for males & females, and the physical attributes are different, and even the mental and emotional aspects are different. ?So I do and will always say that males and females are different and even each person either male or female ?are different, so why not coach and teach them with what works for the individual. That is all I am saying and what I meant. ?I think most people would agree, but as a coach it would be much easier to teach players one style and one way, (my way or the highway.) ?(Another thread entirely.)

So I am done with the subject, as for rules, Bretman I am sure could answer, and as for coaching and playing I am sure you and many other know more than me, so I wont argue about that. ?However the one point I would argue and never shut up, is that it is for the girls and not some coaches' ego trip. ?If it is not for girls, then in my opinion you should not be coaching or teaching at all. ?

What are the real motives? glory, money, authority, proving a point? ?Mine and I think most good coaches ?are to help the girls and the game of softball.

Have a great day, and if everyone is happy with their coach and their dd is getting what they need, then I don't see a problem at all. ?

However the original poster asked a question about style and I gave my 2 cents for his and his dd's benefit not to discuss international rules, give Hillhouse publicity or even to argue. ?I think many use this board to advertise, and spread their own agendas and motives. ?Which is why I usualy just stealth on here, unless I think someone is sincere about a question and I think I can help. ?

This is a great board and I have learned a lot that helps me with coaching and in turns the girls benefit and that is great and what I like about. The outstanding help from umpires, sucessful coaches and parents is wonderful and very useful. ?However, I don't like to use or waste my time to answer some critic or to argue some point, since it does not help the girls or the game of softball and I don't expect to change anyone's mind in arguing.? So please don't even bother addressing me in the future to argue a point. Agree or disagree, that is great, ?but I won't waste my time to argue about anything. If someone is sincere I will take time to explain my reasons but not to put down or argue with anyone. ? ?

I am finished and is all I will say about that. ? ?

PS:
Regardless of the media and popular thought, we are all individuals and different. ?God made us that way, intended us to be that way, and loves us that way and I for one am so happy He did it that way, and takes us to eternity that way. ?God Bless

 

[default]

Go 2 - You and your DD have to be the ones to absorb all the information, ideas and opinions, then make an educated decision - one that will work for HER. I think it's a great idea to NOT have just one instructor over the course of your DD's pitching "career". In school, we all knew which teachers we thought were good teachers, or at least the ones we really liked. But that particular teacher may have been viewed as a poor communicator by one of your classmates. So one teacher may be just wonderful for one kid, but not good at all for another. My DD went to a "highly recommended" pitching instructor, but they just didn't "connect". She wound up taking instruction from college pitchers who had the same "mental framework" as she did. That worked for us, but could possibly flop for the next girl.

One thing to consider, and this is just my opinion on what I've observed. I've yet to see a "step-pitcher" in D1 college softball. The dominating ones DO have VERY strong core and legs, which they use to their advantage. Men typically have much greater upper body strength than women. I've known of men steppers throwing something like 65mph+ without hardly using their legs. Rarely will you find a woman who can do that with just upper body and arm speed. When my DD learned to lengthen her stride, with a more explosive movement, her speed increased dramatically. This started with an intensive leg strength building program. Just look at a college pitcher's legs. Most have huge upper legs and glutes - even the "large frame" ones.

Regardless, it just depends on your DD's goals. Does she dream of being an Olympic level pitcher, or is she content with just being a decent pitcher on her high school team. She is the ONLY one who knows this, and it's her decision to make. It's not a right or wrong issue, but rather what she's happy with.

I wish you well on your journey with your DD. Regardless of the path you choose, don't get caught up in the "you MUST do it this way" crowd. Do your research, make your own educated guesses, and enjoy every minute, because she'll be an adult before you know it!

 

[default]

You guys tell me if you've seen this : To many wanna-be self professed "Pitching Coaches" ? There are alot of good pitching coaches but in talking with Bill Hillhouse , Jimmy Yates and some of the college coaches,To many girls are being taught by "dad" or theguy that never played softball or coach softball" but boy he's a great Pitching coach!!! :-/