Run Count?

[Dawgsdad]

Had a situation over the weekend. Bases loaded with 2 outs. Dropped third strike and it actually went to the backstop. Catcher panicked and threw it to first after the runner on third crossed the plate. The batter was called out at first. Ump said run counts. We claimed that it was still a force play and it does not, we won the conference but going forward, whats the call?

 

[coachjwb]

No run ... force out at first.

 

[BretMan2]

No run...but technically not a force out.

By the rule book definition of a "force out", you can only have a force out against a runner who is already on base and is forced to advance by the batter becoming a batter-runner. So the definition cannot apply to a batter running to first base.

There is a separate rule for that. If you read the rule about a run not scoring if the third out is a force out, right next to that is another rule that says no run scores if the third out is made by the batter before safely reaching first base. This covers all of the possible ways a batter can be put out- strike out, fly ball out, or committing an act of interference, for example.

So, yeah, it looks like a force out, because most force outs are executed by a fielder touching the base while holding the ball. If you call it a force out, everybody will probably know what you're talking about, and the end result will still be the same. But it's not really a force out, not by the strict definition in the rule book. No run scores here because the batter did not safely reach first base.

 

[Dawgsdad]

Thanks for the complete definition. I just hope to have this handy because I cant remember all that detail. LOL

 

[cz fastpitch fan]

No run...but technically not a force out.

By the rule book definition of a "force out", you can only have a force out against a runner who is already on base and is forced to advance by the batter becoming a batter-runner. So the definition cannot apply to a batter running to first base.

There is a separate rule for that. If you read the rule about a run not scoring if the third out is a force out, right next to that is another rule that says no run scores if the third out is made by the batter before safely reaching first base. This covers all of the possible ways a batter can be put out- strike out, fly ball out, or committing an act of interference, for example.

So, yeah, it looks like a force out, because most force outs are executed by a fielder touching the base while holding the ball. If you call it a force out, everybody will probably know what you're talking about, and the end result will still be the same. But it's not really a force out, not by the strict definition in the rule book. No run scores here because the batter did not safely reach first base.

So in an extreme case of this....bases loaded with 2 outs and the batter hits a BOMB over the left fielder's head....the batter runner trips and twists her ankle en route to 1B. All three runners who were on base scored but the girl is having difficulty getting to 1B. The left fielder throws the ball to the cut-off who realizes there is no play at home, but she still has a play at 1. She throws the ball to first base which beats the batter runner. She is out. Technically all 3 of those runs would be negated, correct?
Strange situation, but I suppose it is possible, eh? According to the rules, those 3 runs would all be negated because the batter runner was put out before reaching first base. Correct, Bretman?

 

[BretMan2]

That's right. No runs score because the batter did not safely reach first base.

 

[FastBat]

So in an extreme case of this....bases loaded with 2 outs and the batter hits a BOMB over the left fielder's head....the batter runner trips and twists her ankle en route to 1B. All three runners who were on base scored but the girl is having difficulty getting to 1B. The left fielder throws the ball to the cut-off who realizes there is no play at home, but she still has a play at 1. She throws the ball to first base which beats the batter runner. She is out. Technically all 3 of those runs would be negated, correct?
Strange situation, but I suppose it is possible, eh? According to the rules, those 3 runs would all be negated because the batter runner was put out before reaching first base. Correct, Bretman?

I have been around softball for the past 30 years and never has anything like this happened. I know the offensive players couldn't help her to first, defense could help?

 

[cz fastpitch fan]

Me neither, but according to a direct application of the rule that's how it would work. That's why it is always enjoyable to read the new Case Books when they come out, because these types of super unique situations are covered and we can learn from them.

 

[Gundog]

So Bretman, in your opinion, why don't the authors of rules books just call the batter runner a force out at first? They may not be forced by another runner but they are certainly forced by the rules of the game -- What are the rules writers trying to accomplish by segregating the batter runner from being a force out at first as it appears all the rules of a force out are applicable to that situation? It is clearly not a timing play....