Hitting and Hitters Discussion Swing Analysis

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playedout08

Take your thoughts on pulling the knob close to the body, short quick swing and use that in a game.

One adjustment

Dont fold the arms back so quick and hit the ball, extend the end of the bat to the pitcher and roll out of the swing.


single, just turned into a double. triple, ?



straightleg

 

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As long as you slot the back elbow and do not keep it so close that the back elbow is against your side. ;D

 

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Before I studied hitting much, one thing I knew was that rolling the wrists at or before contact severely compromised power, and contributed to weak grounders. I had both my kids think of extending the bat barrel to center field before rolling the wrists, which is well beyond contact. Both of them now release the top hand. Some coaches insist on not releasing the top hand for fear that the player will release too soon. IMO, it's a preference thing, and forcing everyone to maintain a grip with late wrist roll is a lazy cookie-cutter approach by a coach. Proper teaching is key. DD is a work in progress under a very qualified watchful eye, and the release simply works for her. It's not for everyone, though.

At the higher levels of the game, there's a LOT of specialty hitting techniques. I'm betting less than 1% of girls will ever see a pitch faster than 65 mph. IMO, teaching solid swing mechanics with an excellent sense of timing will counteract most pitching to that point. Learning the basic fundamentals of a quality swing comes first, then you can build on that.

 

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bh2424gh

You got it with the back elbow. You know howard too?
or just know the mechanics.





Hand torque - opposite directions? Never heard howard talk about anykind of hand torque that i remember.

Lead hand pulling

Back hand? I believe pulling also.
I believe h says arms working in unison, as a unit.

At some point you have to release your wrists, or the swing would stop at arm length

Grip?

I know how h teach's grip, that would be part of it. Anybody care to comment on grip.




Straightleg

 

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Just got back from a mini vacation and now I feel as if giving an opinion on this is like putting an orange target on my back...

What I see in his swing is smooth and under control at least up to where the film starts.

Look at his linear weight transfer and you will see his back foot almost become air borne and it is moving forward and the torque or forces going towards the outside edge of his lead foot and for me that is demonstrating power during his swing.

His head remains down in the contact zone and in my opinion that means more power however there are those that would argue about that and I say let the data speak for itself and when the hitters explain and tell me they feel more powerful doing it that is good enough for me and their power numbers prove it.

I did see his head pull out on some of his poorer swings during his hitting exhibition, so I think it is relevant as to keeping the head in the contact zone as long as you are not allowing the front side to open too quickly but to be on time.

I don't think this was a pulled pitch or that he was trying to from the location on the bat of the ball. I think the front foot would have rolled over completely if that is what he was attempting to do possibly like Sheffield. Maybe it was just right of center but I am not sure and do not remember.

As to hand path itself again in my opinion he slotted his rear elbow as his lead arm elbow was pulling or what Elliot would say staying connected. Look at the space of his elbow from his body as he is rotating and it clearly is not tight against his body as some promote.

From where the hands begin to slot can not be seen however as he is rotating and the shot is from the back side too much however you can see the elbow is away from his body and is not being pulled across his chest and his lead arm elbow is leading and is flexed and not straightened out as some profess to do or what they term a power V or doing quick hands and his is not at a power V until AFTER contact.

Look at his top hand in particular and you will see his bat releasing into his finger tips like Luis Gonzales does on RVP and I think that is important as it promotes extension through the ball.

We have a saying to the ball and through the ball to extension and then roll out and in particular look at how and when he rolls out and finishes over his shoulder and his head is still in the contact zone.

For those that have back slappers and finish below the shoulders look at his finish and it is perfect in my opinion and can be taught to any hitter.

Some people promote looking up as the hitter makes contact and or that it makes no difference and we do not.....opinions are like belly buttons and everyone has one....maybe not Statman or Ringer but most people do.

His bat lag and again for sake of argument that to me means his hands are basically staying inside the path of the ball and he pulling or whipping the bat into contact and is not pushing the bat and he is trying to time when to release his upper arm from the shoulder rotating and the hips and unhinge his forearm and finally his wrists to the path or plane of the pitch.

I do not believe centripetal force alone unhinges the wrists but rather is the force that results when the complex mechanics of the body do what they do and is determined by the hitters instinct and ability in the final analysis of when the wrists are released and that is when the hitter determines when they want to do it, not centripetal force itself.

Look at how his front leg locks out at contact and his back hip is moving forward in such a smooth manner. For those that think the best hitters in the world do not use a linear weight shift take another look...as for me this is what we try to get every hitter to do without exception and Cshilt you saw it happen right before your eyes so you know it can be taught and learned.

When you see the tilt of his shoulders matching the plane of the pitch again it is a thing of beauty!

After watching him hit I asked Elliot who was going to claim his hitting technique.

Epstein, Yeager, Slaught, Englishby, Schmidt, Baker, SetPro, Mankin or did I leave anyone else out of the current hitting theories?

You will see what you want however it was not hitting down or swinging level or a step stop and rotate to hitting the ball nor a squish or leaning backwards when at contact.

You see a lot of what he did and does in Team USA swings as well as Canadian and Australian hitters in my opinion.

This is the type swing we are trying to teach to our girls that some think can not be taught for some reason and he is as good a model for a swing as Manny or Crystl could be for any hitter male or female....they are doing all the right things no matter who taught them and not just during batting practice or off a pitching machine.

 

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you never let us down... no target in sight here

 

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I'm kind of on the fence in the whole "top hand torque" debate. I've heard arguments for and against this concept. Would be interested to see what Howard has to say.

Bretman I would not use top hand torque to describe it in my opinion as when you are in the attack mode the hands are separated rearward at toe touch and when we decide to swing we lower our rear elbow into the slot and I do not think about the wrists other than along for the ride at that moment only. The bat was hopefully behind our head prior to this thought and our hips were forward.
Bretman
Otherwise, fundamentally sound rotational swing, powered by the body's core, whipping the bat head around in a tight circular path. Pretty much textbook.

Bretman I do not think in terms of rotational as I feel the swing is elliptical because the hands have moved forward and inside the path of the ball and until the shoulder and upper and lower forearm release and the wrists unhinge or release it is anything but rotational. Per Dr. Russel of Kettering the actual pivot about 6 inches below the knob of the bat so if the hands are moving forward first and then become more semi circular than rotational if you are purely rotational in my opinion.

My impression of the exaggerated hand action in this clip is that Hamilton was way early and ahead of the pitch, had to kind of back off on the shoulder rotation to compensate, then the bat head whipped around more than it normally would. No surprise, since this was from the home run derby at the All-Star game against basically batting practice speed pitches.

Bretman in my opinion his hand movement is not exaggerated it is just perfect and we all got a treat by watching him. I will let others talk about if the hand path he is using can be taught and look forward to hearing about it.

I would think because he was in his position of hands back or separated and hips forward it would not have made any difference if it was Randy Johnson. He was able to adjust because of his stance....in my opinion

Against live pitching, he probabaly would not have time to make that kind of adjustment and would be burned.

I still look forward to meeting you some day and enjoy your insight to the game.

 

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front elbow starts the drive before the hips open into rotation the back elbow pushes thru , head stays down thru contact, bat angle is perfect, knob above hands , hands above barrell , barrell above ball, momentum is forward thru drive, hands are released correctly after contact, my biggest question is,.,,,,,, who was the rocket scientest that traded him

 

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Cshilt you saw it happen right before your eyes so you know it can be taught and learned.

Yes, I did see it and she has continued to hit the ball very well. As I mentioned when we saw you, she was getting the ball in play over 80% of the time, but wasn't getting the base hit. She is hitting about .300 points over her season average since then and it is my intention to keep that train a'rolling along.

 

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Well you got a Cy Young candidate for him. Howard did a fine job of breaking down his swing and I do think he was out in front of it a bit in this example as stated by Lady Knights. Didnt matter he still went yard with it.

As for the top hand release I have always liked it but the problem with it is with most young hitters they tend to let go before contact not after contact. So I have quit teaching it to younger hitters.

Now lets talk about top hand stupidity. I mean torque. Anytime you start playing with the bat in your hands other than to release the hinge angle of the wrist your playing with fire IMO. To pull on the bottom and push on the top will impact the swing plane. Not to mention is going to play heck with you trying to stay connected. Your going to want to start taking your hands to the ball when you torque the wrist. Or worse ROLL them. This is not a natural movement and has to be perfect for it to even be considered effective. As I stated recently on another site. Show me a hitter who uses his hands and I will show you a hitter that is just north of the Mendosa line.

(Minnie Mendosa hit `185 in 16 games in the bigs)

Mankin has some good things on his DVD. He went wrong with the THT thing. Just hold on to the bat and rotate. Stay connected and hold the hinge angle as long as possible. (Howard and I are still in discussion on this one. ) He may change my mind but its gonna take some more work. LOL

Oh and I won Howard. They all claimed a piece if this guys swing. Go check out baseball 101. Think the thread is Home Run Derby or something like that. ;D ;D ;D

Elliott.

 

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As for the top hand release I have always liked it but the problem with it is with most young hitters they tend to let go before contact not after contact. So I have quit teaching it to younger hitters.

I do not teach a one hand release?.rather the hitters evolve to it. Until they can feel and demonstrate extension properly I encourage them to keep both hands on the bat. Then all of sudden they just start letting go themselves especially after using the Whip Hit with one hand and then with two?.especially since we stopped lining up the finger knuckles.

The back slappers and those that finish below the shoulders WILL feel the difference in power and quickness once they understand extension?.I think it is a Midwest thing we teach and I usually associate it with those that teach hitting down or level on the ball.

Now lets talk about top hand stupidity. I mean torque. Anytime you start playing with the bat in your hands other than to release the hinge angle of the wrist your playing with fire IMO. To pull on the bottom and push on the top will impact the swing plane. Not to mention is going to play heck with you trying to stay connected. Your going to want to start taking your hands to the ball when you torque the wrist. Or worse ROLL them. This is not a natural movement and has to be perfect for it to even be considered effective. As I stated recently on another site. Show me a hitter who uses his hands and I will show you a hitter that is just north of the Mendosa line.

By avoiding the extremeness in the hand position and for me we start the hands top of the hand top of the shoulder, not at the ears or below the shoulder either and encourage the back elbow to be away, not all the up and not down. If the back elbow is down how can we lower it into the slot? By starting connection if you are thinking pushing versus pulling is where the ground balls come from and the elbows are no longer connected and working as a unit.

We also tap the back of the helmet where the pony tail would be if coming out from the back of the head versus top of the head to establish the plane of the bat at about 45 degrees versus the bat being held vertically or up in a straight line. We try to keep it simple and teach mechanics first and then incorporate style later.

Mankin has some good things on his DVD. He went wrong with the THT thing. Just hold on to the bat and rotate. Stay connected and hold the hinge angle as long as possible. (Howard and I are still in discussion on this one. ) He may change my mind but its gonna take some more work. LOL

My friend we will be talking about this for a while so we can collect more data from our students who are using it. Once they understand how to hit the ball up the middle first so they understand bat control we don?t talk about it much as they are doing it on their own. Then we do the PVC sticks and take it to another level getting them to understand hand path and then go straight to the outside pitch next. They work on wrist release after making a good first move from one knee and then we bring the legs back into it by rotating as needed and not allowing over rotation or pulling off the outside pitch.
Cshilt was the most recent person subjected to this however there are others who have seen it and used it so that makes it more credible than the top hand torque stuff in my opinion?.Just laughing about it however if we spin you with enough centripetal force Elliot and increase your blood flow will you consider trying it?

Oh and I won Howard. They all claimed a piece if this guys swing. Go check out baseball 101. Think the thread is Home Run Derby or something like that.

I thought one or two but not all of them?but many of them are your close personal friends so it does not surprise me how they see the world?.especially with blinders on and wearing ear muffs during the summer! Would you like tea with your crumpets?
Yea you know who! Ha! Ha! Remember keep your head UP on this journey! Ha! Ha!

Howard

 

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my belly button is SOMEWHERE, howard not sure about ringer's though, it might be where he keeps his pocket change

howard, next time i'm rolling through your neck of the woods, i'll make sure to stop by and talk shop...

Ray

 

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I heard an interview with Josh Hamilton once during which he spoke of centripetal force. He went into rehab shortly after that-- or perhaps because of it. Somtime later, the interviewer asked Josh's American Legion coach/BP pitcher about centripetal force and he said he never liked listening to that hippie music.

Honus Wagner, Ty Cobb, Ted Williams, Pete Rose and Rod Carew never heard about centripetal force, either. Of course, the internet wasn't around when they were playing, so they just had to go up and hit the stinking ball. Maybe the listened to a tobacco-spitting batting instructor when they were slumping, but mostly they looked to make adjustments to external forces that might have been working against them. Getting a new bat was first on the list. That was followed by getting a new girlfriend. A change of diet was usually up there pretty high. Chicken worked for Boggs.

On a more serious note, Carew was on ESPN the other night and gave all hitters a great piece of advice: hold the bat in your fingers. Watch some video of that guy hitting sometime. I'll guarantee you he would have been one of the few baseball hitters who could put the ball in play against top male fastpitch pitchers.

 

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Stat,

That was too much information. According to my wife in our 27 years I have gone from an inney to an outie. What does she mean by that Stat?

Elliott. :-/

 

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Compare today's teaching/learning of softball/baseball skills to NASCAR. In the old days, the guys just got in their car and drove as fast as they could until they crashed. They tried to figure out what they did wrong, then repeated the process. Expensive trial and error, but there was no better way. Whoever figured it out first without killing themselves won.

Today there's a better way. NASCAR has pinpoint GPS tracking, gyro sensors, computer modeling, computerized fuel management, and on and on. The best in the world ALL use those tools, and have also sought out the best knowledgeable instructors who know how to use those tools.

I like the latter approach. Thanks Howard!

 

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NASCAR is NOT a sport

There have been a couple of mentions about centripetal force. Centripetal force is a kinematic force requirement, not a true force and does not apply to Newtons laws of motion. I believe the swing creates a centrifugal force (a kinetic force) which does apply to Newtons laws of motion (f=ma). Just before impact, the hitters body (reference frame) starts their hips, arms, hands, trunk, shoulders (axis of rotation) causing an outward force (centrifugal force). I might be wrong since I have not studied Dynamics in about 25 years....... :-/

Len

 

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Len - I agree with you in that NASCAR is not a sport. By my definition, neither is golf or ping pong- but that's another discussion. My reference to NASCAR was ONLY comparing the advantages one has when using today's technology to learn.

 

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I'm not to sure that Epstein uses "torque" in his teachings. ?I know that Mankin is a big on on THT "top hand torque" ?This is where the top and bottom hands are working in opposite directions, creating torque on the bat. ?

Lk
I dont understand top and bottom hands working in opposite directions.
Could you explain that? or h, ifubuildit?


What is top hand torque



Straightleg

 

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NASCAR is NOT a sport

There have been a couple of mentions about centripetal force. Centripetal force is a kinematic force requirement, not a true force and does not apply to Newtons laws of motion. I believe the swing creates a centrifugal force (a kinetic force) which does apply to Newtons laws of motion (f=ma). Just before impact, the hitters body (reference frame) starts their hips, arms, hands, trunk, shoulders (axis of rotation) causing an outward force (centrifugal force). I might be wrong since I have not studied Dynamics in about 25 years....... :-/

Len

Len maybe this will help and I attached the site address Howard

Common misunderstandings
Centripetal force should not be confused with centrifugal force. Centripetal force is a kinematic force requirement deduced from an observed trajectory, not a kinetic force like gravity or electrical forces. Centripetal force requirements may be deduced from a trajectory in any frame of reference (although the trajectory of an object and the deduced centripetal force will vary from one frame to another). Because centripetal force is a kinematic force requirement inferred from an established trajectory, it is not used to deduce a trajectory from a physical situation, and centripetal force is not included in the inventory of forces that are used in applying Newton's laws F = m a to calculate a trajectory.
Centrifugal force, on the other hand, is treated in a rotating frame as a kinetic force, that is, as part of the inventory of forces used in Newton's laws to predict motion. Centrifugal force is a fictitious force, however, that arises only when motion is described or experienced in a rotating reference frame, and it does not exist in an inertial frame of reference.[4]
Centripetal force should not be confused with central force, either. To reiterate, centripetal force is a force requirement necessary for a curved trajectory to be possible: it is not a type of force, such as a nuclear or gravitational force. In contrast, central forces does refer to a type of force, more exactly to a class of physical forces between two objects that meet two conditions: (1) their magnitude depends only on the distance between the two objects and (2) their direction points along the line connecting the centers of these two objects. Examples of central forces include the gravitational force between two masses and the electrostatic force between two charges.
As an example relating these terms, the centripetal force implied by the circular motion of an object often is provided by a central force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centripetal_force

I will post another article however it won't fit in one post....I hope it helps clarify what I was trying to explain.

Howard

 

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NASCAR is NOT a sport

There have been a couple of mentions about centripetal force. Centripetal force is a kinematic force requirement, not a true force and does not apply to Newtons laws of motion. I believe the swing creates a centrifugal force (a kinetic force) which does apply to Newtons laws of motion (f=ma). Just before impact, the hitters body (reference frame) starts their hips, arms, hands, trunk, shoulders (axis of rotation) causing an outward force (centrifugal force). I might be wrong since I have not studied Dynamics in about 25 years....... :-/

Len

8. How to swing a bat (June 2008)
It is not difficult to swing a bat. It is almost as easy as walking. But how does a batter do it? Specifically, what forces and torques are exerted on the handle, and in what directions do they act? It is very surprising that noone seems to have worked this out before. Adair provides a few answers in his book ?The Physics of Baseball? but he does not give the directions or the torques. The diagram below shows the swing of a wood bat filmed from a spot above the batter?s head. The force on the bat can be worked out from the velocity of the center of mass, (CM), and the torques can be worked out from the angular acceleration. The results are very surprising. Initially, the force on the handle is in the opposite direction to the motion of the handle. While the center of mass moves one way (nearly upward here), the handle moves the opposite way (nearly downward). The batter needs to exert a small couple to get the swing started, using equal and opposite forces on the handle, otherwise the barrel of the bat will get left behind. Near the end of the swing, the force is roughly at right angles to motion of the handle since the centripetal force is very large. However, the centripetal force does not act along the axis of the bat, but at an angle, as shown by the orange lines.
The direction of the centripetal force is toward the center of the circle followed by the path of the CM. Since the CM traces out a spiral rather than a circular path, the center of the circle moves, as the bat is swung, along the path traced out by the inner circle of black dots. At any given time, the center of the circle can be found by fitting a circle to three neighboring points, at say time t, and at times t+0.02 s and t-0.02 s. This gives the radius, R, of the circle, from which we can calculate the centripetal force MV2/R as well as the force at right angles to that, given by MdV/dt.
Near the end of the swing, the batter needs to exert a large negative couple on the bat, otherwise the bat will swing around too fast and strike the ball when it is aligned at the wrong angle. The same thing happens when swinging a golf club, but it is not a well-known effect. Rather, most coaches and others think in terms of wrist torque, which is probably much too small to provide the necessary large couple near the end of the swing The couple must come mainly from the two arms, not the wrists.
http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~cross/baseball.html

Centripetal Force - The Real Force
________________________________________
Whenever an object moves in a circular path we know the object is accelerating because the velocity is constantly changing direction. All accelerations are caused by a net force acting on an object. In the case of an object moving in a circular path, the net force is a special force called the centripetal force (not centrifugal!). Centripetal is Latin for "center seeking". So a centripetal force is a center seeking force which means that the force is always directed toward the center of the circle. Without this force, an object will simply continue moving in straight line motion.
http://www.regentsprep.org/Regents/physics/phys06/bcentrif/default.htm

Hope this helps....Howard