Time for a new division with requirments

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With so many new teams, and teams able to call themselves "A" divison with out playing a single tournament yet. I think it is great to have more teams and orgs. But I also think it's time to add a division to the status of teams based solely on performance over a couple of years time, and not because a team says they are.

Such as:

"B" Division - all new teams, and community based teams
Win 3 tournaments in a year or win 5 tournaments over 2 years to move up-to the next division

"A" Division - Established orgs (only for the next 5 years, after which teams must advance to "A" from the "B" division) or teams that have moved up from "B" division
Place first or second in 10+ tournaments over a 2 consecutive years plus a top 4 finish at States to move up to the next division.

"ELITE" Division - Must move up from the "A" Division. Orgs added to ELITE Division now could be well known orgs that are the power houses now, ie. Lasers, Doom, Static, Hawks, Stingrays etc...

I think this would be a great way to separate teams and the talent, Not all girls would want to make the move up to ELITE division but the girls and parents would know just were they were on the talent/ team list . I think it would stop teams from calling themselves "A" just because they can. I also think it would help to stop teams players from jumping ship year after year, at least the ship jumpers would stay within a division or would want to make the move up-to a higher division.

JMHO

 

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So all the elite teams must do when they are tagged as elite is play scrimmages with one another and each team figure out when and where they will play in the quilifier and hopefully make it .Because after all the tourny would have to be classified as an elite team only tourny wouldnt it?And if that was the case like i said all the coaches would have to do is figure out between them what quilifiers each team would attend and dismiss themselves from that particular tourny.Sounds like a good way of saving some money for sure..
Not real sure how this would pan out parma,because over the years i have heard from coaches that if you strive to be the best you must play the best and in this structure im not so sure youll be able to do so.

JMO,Ron

 

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Sure you could have lets say a 14u division, get 4 teams or more for elite then you have an elite bracket, and an "A" bracket for everyone else. Kind of like doing the Gold and Silver brackets on Sunday.. or Kind of like what goes on now with Elite teams, plus the other not so elite teams, play in the GAPPS, LASER NATION, STINGRAYS, CAPITOL CITY SHOWDOWN, STATES, ASA/USA TOURNAMENTS, ALL SANCTION TOURNAMENTS etc


As far as scrimmages go who cares, like high schools scrimmaging DI vs DIII. A scrimmage is just that each team has something they are trying to work on during the scrimmage and will play up or down to see were they are or what they need to work on.

 

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Naturally with any idea like this there are some great things about it and some not so great things. How about a team that occasionally wants to "play up" to stretch themselves? How about a new team that is actually on a certain layer but can't play there because they are "new"?

Here is something to consider... and is what we used to go through when I played softball on the east coast..... Players were rated and if you had X amount of players that were rated above your certain league you had to move up to keep the team together. If you played "C" and had too many "B" players you had to move to "B", and so on.

The problem with that is rating players. That gets nasty, snitty, etc. etc. etc. so obviously that won't happen but I thought I'd throw it out there.

 

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Sure you could have lets say a 14u division, get 4 teams or more for elite then you have an elite bracket, and an "A" bracket for everyone else. Kind of like doing the Gold and Silver brackets on Sunday.. or Kind of like what goes on now with Elite teams, plus the other not so elite teams, play in the GAPPS, LASER NATION, STINGRAYS, CAPITOL CITY SHOWDOWN, STATES, ASA/USA TOURNAMENTS, ALL SANCTION TOURNAMENTS etc


As far as scrimmages go who cares, like high schools scrimmaging DI vs DIII. A scrimmage is just that each team has something they are trying to work on during the scrimmage and will play up or down to see were they are or what they need to work on.

You answered my question...If you only have 4 teams in the elite class would it not be monitarilly benificiall for those four teams just to get together and play scrimmages against one another to prepare for nationals and quilifiers.Im just talking about from 14u down because most 16u and above are usually focussed on showcases and not so much nationals.Then again i might be off track on this..

 

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The other problem is when does the rating begin? A team that won 3 tournaments last year could loose some key talent and not perform at the same level. It doesn't sound right nor fair for a previous season's performance determine the current year ranking.

There's far too many flaws for it to work.

And then you'd have to rank the tournaments based on the competition because teams could easily stack their stats by playing against weaker competition. Everyone quickly learns who the good teams are and names like "gold" and "elite" really become meaningless because anyone can put those in their names. It's the reputations and records that some organization apart from others and no ranking system will replace that.

 

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i would agree that reputations means almost everything, after all i saw last year a brand new org got accepted to GAPPS even though they where a first year team. And this year to Laser Nation and that same team placed second at one tournament last year...

look at the big orgs now that are getting 2, 3, and even 4 teams in the same age group... Are they all top knotch, maybe or maybe not, know one will know till the season is over.

 

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You answered my question...If you only have 4 teams in the elite class would it not be monitarilly benificiall for those four teams just to get together and play scrimmages against one another to prepare for nationals and quilifiers.Im just talking about from 14u down because most 16u and above are usually focussed on showcases and not so much nationals.Then again i might be off track on this..

Thats how things are now, a tournament must have 4 teams or more to have that age division....

 

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Why are people so concerned with what teams rate or classify themselves as? In my opinion a rating system is getting ridiculous. I don't care what your record was last year, this year is what matters. There are some very reputable organizations out there and they continue to produce quality teams....I understand and respect that. But, don't tell me I can't play you in a tournament because I don't hold an "A", "B", or "Elite" rating.

I understand that it no fun to crush someone. It is no fun for the winning team because it is not competitive and it is demoralizing for the loosing team. But, if you think you have the quality of players to compete than let it be up to the coach to decide what tournaments they get in not your rating system.

This "new travel team" thing as it is referred to; it is only going to continue to develop. More and more parents and players want to advance in the level of competition they are playing at so therefore more new teams will be formed. Some of the teams will be competitive and some won't......your not going to change that I don't care who you are.

At the end of the day we all pay money to play in tournaments and my money is just as good as yours regardless of what rating is "assigned" to my team.

Let it be settled on the softball field.

 

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Great for conversation, but TD's are already starting to do this on their own through invitation only tourneys.

 

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Stupid! That's why most strong teams play up! Elite teams where in Ohio those are few and far between! Just curious you guys get into Stingrays or any invitation only events?:lmao:

 

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Great for conversation, but TD's are already starting to do this on their own through invitation only tourneys.

Yes very true

 

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Parma ... you have the right idea, I just don't know if it would ever be possible. If there was a series of fall tourney's maybe that allowed teams 'after' tryouts to play and establish themselves perhaps? But team makeup changes over the winter as well.

At this point there really are more likely 3 levels of teams. The truly 'elite' teams - the top 6-8 teams in each age, then solid 'A' teams for lack of a better rank and the 'B' teams that play locally,still have a couple 'holes' on the team and are still developing as players and a team.

There is a large gap between each level although some teams develop up every season through good training and practice. It is no fun to be on either end of the spectrum in a game where the elite are playing team below them - it does little for either team.

Invite only tourneys are separating it some, trying to pair the best with the best - it is the coach/team managers job to take the time to build the team resume then present it on paper to get his/her team in. Our teams that wish to advance up and play in the invite tourneys are told it is roughly a three year process.

Year 1 - play locally, develop the players and team, have some local success. Go to a good world series (midwest ws, usssa etc) at season end and measure your progress.

Year 2 - recruit at tryout the players to fill their holes, play in 4-5 of the fastpitch showdowns (they have good team representation) and be successful there - make a couple championship games, play the better local tourney's - avoid the 'false World Series' tourneys (nothing will kill your teams rep like playing in a 'B' tourney that labels itself a world series or championship this or that). Go to ASA State and see how you do there. Get into our Dayton Metro ASA/USA tourney and see how you do. But, make sure your team is ready - you can set them back if they play poorly and are not ready.

If in year 2 you have good success, win a couple of the better known local tourneys, compete well at the state tourneys, FPShowdows, and WS .. then you have a decent resume started. Remember that most all the invites are ASA sanctioned - play ASA tourneys (Metro/State) if you want to match up to the better teams that get in there.

Year 3 - solidify your team at tryouts. You need 2 very good pitchers and a solid catcher. Apply for the invitationals - take the time to write a great application in detail - as another coach of a team that has been invited in the past to add a reference in your application - then, hope for the best. It is likely you will not get in your first time. Schedule more FP Showdowns, seek out the 'better' orgs that are known for playing in the invites and play them when possible - esp the teams that host the bigger tourneys. If you beat them or give them a solid game, that will go a long way to establishing your team with them. A coach at your teams age on the invite selection committee will vouch for your team ... get to know him during the season, and play tough against his team. Earn his respect.

Do all that and you will get into your first invite tourney and start the process of moving up the ladder if that is your teams desire...

 

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Sorry Parma but this is just another case of us adults messing with our kid's game. Why don't we just invite OHSAA to come run things. :lmao: Rules, regulations and more structure are not the answer and I'm not sure what the problem is they would be trying to solve. Seems there are enough tournaments around that any team could find some that fit their level.

 

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Dang! Now I gotta re-evaluate my plans to start a first year 12U team and call it "Gold" so that elite players will show up at my tryouts...

 

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I actually think that the existing system works pretty well. If your team has the chops to play some of the top teams in the state, it won't be hard to find the (non-invitational) tournaments that offer that competition. Invitational tournaments have their own internal requirements, as Parma has acknowledged.

If you are already established as one of the top teams in the state, there are very very few reasons to enter a tournament that doesn't include great competition. I just don't think that we have much of a problem in Ohio of good teams seeking out inferior competition.
Are there really that many tournaments where lop-sided contests last past the first round of bracket play? Sure, there are occasional instances of a team entering a tournament that is simply way too tough for that team; ASA states and other USA/ASA qualifiers come to mind here because anyone can enter these tournaments. But I am a firm believer that really good teams have to learn how to handle inferior teams, so an occasional lop-sided contest in these tournaments isn't a total waste. Beating a team that you should dominate is a skill in and of itself. Who hasn't seen the look of anxiety in a team that realizes, "wow, if we don't start playing better, we could actually lose to this team"? And the coach of the less talented team is to blame for putting his or her team into such a tournament that offers little success to that team; you have to have your head in the sand not to know that USA/ASA qualifiers are going to have extremely strong teams. In any event, entering a rec all star team in such strong tournaments is a mistake that a coach will probably make only once.

As for non-USA/ASA qualifiers, there has been a big movement to pressure TD's to list on OFC the teams that have entered, and that goes a long way towards teams selecting the proper tournaments for their level of play. If a new coach doesn't have a good grasp of the quality of a particular tournament, he or she can ask around. There are many on OFC who will answer PM's about such a question.

So I don't know that extra regulation of entries is really necessary in Ohio. And I absolutely agree that even if it would produce significantly better tournaments, the proposal just isn't workable absent enforcement by one of the main sanctioning bodies, which opens a whole other can of worms.

 

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I guess my point is more for Players and parents then it is for teams. I see so many players jumping from a top level team to a Brand new org or a lesser than top level team, a de-grade instead of up-grade. I guess we will never understand why players do this but maybe there is a system that could help players understand what they were leaving and were they are going..so to speak

 

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I guess my point is more for Players and parents then it is for teams. I see so many players jumping from a top level team to a Brand new org or a lesser than top level team, a de-grade instead of up-grade. I guess we will never understand why players do this but maybe there is a system that could help players understand what they were leaving and were they are going..so to speak

Kids jump around for all kinds of reasons. Some just get burned out at the hectic schedules some organizations have. Some have a change in direction in their lives. Some don't want to be that committed to a single sport. Some develop issues with their parents. Boys. Some think they will be a standout star on a lesser team. I've heard many reasons.

I'd say just leave the way things are left alone. College scouts are going to look at the kid, not the team. The reputation of the organization may help but it's really the kid. Any ranking system is just another filter that any scout has to filter through just like "elite" or "gold" in the team name. That's more for marketing for the organization than anything else. Same thing with a team ranking system.

Just saying...