Tournament Formats & Tie Breakers

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Ok, folks. After a month of indoor tournaments of different formats, time to dial in and get counted.

Please identify whether you are a parent, player or coach and please - dont take this thread negative.

[glb]Game Endings[/glb] - play it out and accept the delay, or drop dead w/rollback, or finish the inning and go to the book

[glb]Tournament Formats[/glb] - double elim, double elim/reentry or pool into single

[glb]Umpires[/glb] - 1 or 2

[glb]Championship Game[/glb] - timed, same as other games, play it out

 

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I hate to see a game end on anything other than the final score. I have no problem with rolling back to the last complete inning but when games are decided by counting base runners that's like letting the supreme court decide who should be president and we all know how well that went! When it comes to the elimination round teams need to understand that the schedule is flexible. I would rather wait 3 hours to start a game than lose a game based on the scorebook rule. I know indoor tournaments present a particular challenge due to the propensity for low scoring but heck, is this softball or figure skating. What's next, having the umpires give out points each inning based on the articitic merits of how the teams play. To me, one of the basic tenants of softball and baseball is that games doen't end in a tie and the only way they end is when one team has more runs than another after a complete inning or the suspension of an official game. If the ITB is used games end sooner or later.

 

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If the rules are clearly stated in the tournament information then we follow the rules. If you are unhappy with the rules I would suggest you find a new tournament for next year or lobby the tournament directors to change them.

By the way the best possible way to avoid this in the future is to score lots more runs than the other team. If you are unwilling or incapable of scoring lots of runs then by all means let the other team score lots more than you thereby avoiding controvery at all costs.

Definetly no liberal slant in my logic, play to win or go home early.

 

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finish the game.....we lost because of runners to first base, which was rediculous in my honest opinion

 

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I don't think I would want to play in a tournament where they don't use the ITB and that is one of the reasons I don't play in indoor tournaments. I'm glad to see that there are a number of indoor places to use for scrimmages and practices but I can't understand how the sanctioning bodies can allow them to have qualifiers there.

I agree wholeheartly that the best way to win a tournament is score early and often but when a screaming shot down the rightfield line hits the net at 90 feet and turns a triple into a put-out at first the "early and often" principle seems to be a little tougher to accomplish. Dave wanted opinions so here they are:

no scorebook rule finishes...play the game out

Re-entry is good if you have the time but single elimination works okay by me.

Always have 2 umpires...there is no way one can keep his/her eyes on the base runners and call balls/strikes

Final should never be a time limit. If someone get a tired and wants to forfeit that's up to them.

No right-wing slant here...just common sense!

 

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Play the game out in the championship especially if there is automatic NSA bid at stake. It should never come down to who is the best bowler unless it's in the rules. This is softball.

 

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I'll play ((( resisting tempatation to address supreme court comments above, LOL ))) ... I am a parent, and occasional coach.

Game Endings - drop dead, roll back, and yes go to the book if necessary. Don't like it any more than anyone else, but you must maintain the schedule. Be thankful you can play ball around here between Nov & Apr, and just deal with the imperfections. No big deal.

Tournament Formats - pool and single elim, like the multiple game guarantee, and the opportunity to have a little fun b4 getting mean.

Umpires - TWO, whenever possible, and ALWAYS for championship games.

Championship Game - play this one out, program the time.

 

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Game Endings: I always go for finishing the inning, the drop dead and roll back seem to cheapen the event.

Tournament Formats: Pool Play into Double Elimination. This seems to be the most pure measure. Many times I have seen the best team at a tournament have one bad inning, and it just so happens to be in a single elim format. At least if that happens in DE you have a chance to battle back. Of course if it happens twice then maybe it was something other then bad luck or just one bad inning.


Umpires: Two


Championship Game - No time limit, play it out. It does matter.


JMHO

 

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Ditto what pickledad said. I think you have to try to keep to the schedule. To me, it's great that so many teams can play a weekend indoor tournament without having to play all night.

Two umpires really would have been nice.

 

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Time limit with inning played out for a winner
(as long as umpires hold to the "don't start a new inning after...&quot I can handle a delay in game time, usually expect one in indoor tournaments.

Double elimination w/reentry OR 3 pool w/single
(but prefer the first)

Don't have a problem with using one umpire in pool play games, as long as that umpire does his or her best to move from behind the plate. BUT definitely two umpires in semi and finals.

Championship game should be played out.

As long as all indoor tournament rules are clear to all coaches then there should be no complaints or issues. You might not like them or agree but you know what they are and have excepted them when entering you team to participate.

I agree with on other post, indoor tournaments are typically tuneup tournaments to see the progress of the team over the winter, also to test the players under pressure, and to breakup the regular routine of winter blahs!!!

Hey Dave, how about a 2-1 count every batter, each team starts with one out? And for a tie breaker, have a dance off. Sorry got carried away, wow indoor has gotten serious! ;D

 

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Parent/scorekeeper.

Play out the inning. But police the clock.(maybe take this away from the umpire.)

Pool Play + single elimination.

If playing on dirt, 2 umpires. ?Running the bases is a bigger factor usually. ?Discourages girls leaving early, and gives both the runner and catcher a fair shake.

a full 7 for Championship Games. Or 6 + ?ITB.

 

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I'm a little on the lazy side after a long weekend, but I have to agree with most of what Ram presents (except the last sentence...lol). I will add to the "time limit with inning played out for winner" with the addition of ITB rules in place! 2 of our most memorable games so far, were at the Thunderplex and were our ITB games against the Ohio Top Guns. Thanks Dave your doing it right!!!

 

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Not to hijack the post from Dave, but I would like to throw another question into the fray... Some of you have mention 2 umpires, etc. Umpire are expensive so would you be willing to pay a little more next year to have 2 umpires?

 

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I think if coaches feel they should have two then they should pay for two. ?The cost of umpires is one of the biggest expenses of any tournament, shame but that is how it is. ?Many area umpires now want compensated for travel (fuel) cost also. That is why I don't object to having one umpire up to the semi's.
I think we'll see the rise of many tournament fees this summer and in future for that reason in particular (along with the rising cost of hotel fees as well).

Lee brings up a good point about ITB, it's great experience for the girls, especially the younger ones at 10/12 to get into those situations. As coaches we don't focus alot of time on that in particular, mostly because there is so much to teach them. But would hate to not have gone through it several times until a national elimination game.

Oh and Lee CONGRATS to you and the girls on two great weekends! ?You're going to have alot of fun this year with those little rays!

 

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Coach,

I'd accept the drop dead and roll back with the scorebook used to break ties up to the semi's. At that point I'd play 1 inning ITB before going to the book and the final would be played to completion.

Lawn bowling or coin flip, what difference does it make at that point? I've been at tournaments where the rain washed out the entire day and multiple games were decided by coin flip without a pitch ever being thrown.

In a final I like 2 umpires, but 1 is OK for the other games if they do a good job. We had a great ump at the Spano dome a couple weeks back and he did a tremendous job. We also had someone who should be doing 8U slow pitch games. I'd like the TD's and NSA reps to keep an eye on these folks and offer refresher courses or don't schedule them for tournaments when they put in poor performances repetitively (we didn't lose that game either).

 

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I think that if there is an indoor tournament, they could set time limits and tiebreaker rules that don't involve additional playing on saturday, when they are only pool games and they run a tight schedule. But maybe something could be done for on sunday, such as ITB when it is bracket play and it's win or go home

 

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Coach and Umpire,

I say play fewer games, but play them all to seven innings, then go to ITB.

Double Elimination bracket play, all games are seven innings.

Championship game, seven innings, played til there is a loser.

2 umpires all the way through the tourney

And if it costs $500? So What?
The chance of playing the game of softball the way it was intended to be played, PRICELESS!!

 

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LK,

No matter what format and number of teams, time still has to be a factor in tournaments. ?Believe me, I am not criticizing, but GFOD used the ITB during their indoor tournament and it led to crazy schedules. ?As you remember, the last game on Sunday for the 14U ended at 12:30 am. (It was a good thing that the girls did not have school the next day, but I felt sorry for the parents that had to work).

You would almost have to have some sort of drop dead at the end of the alloted time in order to maintain a reasonably schedule - especially with tournament played during the school year. ?People may complain but the "rules" are the same for everyone in a drop dead and therefore there is an equal chance for teams to win.

Those who advocate ITB, well you have to remember that the ITB does not guarantee that the game will be over soon. At the above mention GFOD tournament there was a game that was tied after the time limit and they initiated the ITB. It was the 5 inning at that time. The game was not concluded until the 10th inning. This set the entire schedule back by 1 full game. Later there was one other ITB that went 8 innings - now the schedule was set back by almost 2 full games. The final that was suppose to start at 8 did not start until 10:40 pm. ITB is not a fail safe and I think you would end up with more arguements/debates and malcontent if all of the players and parents showed up and found they had to wait 2 1/2 hours more until their game started, etc. JMHO

 

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Here is one for you. Start with modified ITB. Add one out and runner is at third but when the batter comes to the plate its a full count.

Game and ITB will be over quick.

Elliott.

 

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Coach and parent. Indoor games need to stay on some type of fixed schedule. Having school the next day is an important factor. Finish the inning you are in when the time ends. If you are tied, go back to the last inning that you didn't have a tie. If there isn't one, flip a coin.

I don't like the runners to 3rd because the goal is to score runs, not advance base runners to 3rd. I don't want to tell my best hitter to bunt a runner to 3rd with 1 out to make sure they get there. I want them swinging away to try and score the run.

Finally, whether you want to accept it or not, indoor softball is much different than outdoors and you should not be able to earn a national qualifier berth in an indoor tournament. JMHO. That said, it would cost far less to rent these facilities for 'friendlies'. Teams that are competitive with each other can rent a facility and play all day. All of the nonsense that is on several other threads is because there is that coveted nationals berth at stake. Rent the facility and the complexes will still get their money. Then run the games however you want. You could play one inning starting with runners on 2nd and 3rd to simulate the tiebreaker, etc. Playing indoors at this time of year should be about improving your game, not winning a berth to nationals and bragging rights on a message board.