Trying to find in rule book.

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This may sound a little simple and in a way it is but...

Last weekend this happened.

Base were loaded and a pitch was fouled. The catcher picked up the ball and proceeded to throw it over the head of the pitcher into centerfield. Runners advanced and one run scored. The umpire sent the runners back. I talked with the umpire on whether it was the right ruling. He said that runners cannot advance on a foul ball. I agreed with him on that point and said they did not advance on the foul ball, they advanced on the overthrow. He said, "you may be right - but I made a ruling that the runners will return to their bases". The runners were returned to their bases and the game went on (It was not a big issue as we had a considerable lead at the time so there was no arguements). In between the games I did read the rule book and could not find anything that would fit this. Anyone?

 

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In my limited knowledge I would say that since, on a foul ball that is on the ground, assuming it was not a pop foul or fly ball foul, the ball is ruled dead, and since the runners can return to the bases without jeopardy, it would seem that with that benefit comes the fact that they cannot advance or attempt to advance until the ball is put in play by the umpire and it leaves the pitchers hand.

One of those things where you can't have it both ways, I am not of course as I said above referring to a foul tip or a foul pop up or fly ball of course, in those cases the ball is still live and as such in play.

Not the type of technical explanation we usually see here, but I have after all been explaining the rules to players and parents for years and have over the years learned to simplify things, I think?

Bottom line the defense cannot make a play, and the runners cannot advance or be put out when there is a dead ball, the good news here is had one of your players been thrown out during that sequence they would have simply been returned to the base they occupied at the time of the pitch in question.

 

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Good response, but let me throw a wrench in that thought process. I have discussed this with several friends (and we keep on making it more difficult than it probably is..LOL)

In that situation, when does the ball become "live"? It was agreed among us that it becomes live the minute the pitcher touches the ball. Well, the ball glanced off of her glove. Would that make it live? I tried to find a rule that defines this and prohibits running in this situation.

btw, if was a foul ball on the ground.

 

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Believe me I am no expert in the rules of softball, but, it would seem to me that as soon as a defensive player touched the ball it would be live. So when the catcher picked it up to throw it back to the pitcher it became live :-?. Maybe not, but aren't the pitcher and catcher taught to look back the runner at 3rd?

I know stupid response.....but I am very curious what the rule is now

 

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Bretman is orbiting with the right answer, but my opinion is that the ball becomes live when the umpire signals that it is OK to pitch.

Since the pitcher's only option to put the ball into play is to pitch, the umpire's signal starts the game again.

This would not apply during a standard pitcher-catcher exchange, since the ball remains live. Runners could attempt to advance.

 

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Since I have my USSSA rule book today. Umpire made right call based on rule 4 section 1. I would think ASA would be the same. Under a dead ball two things must happen before runners can advance. 1 Pitcher must be back in the circle and the umpire must state play ball.

 

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Since I have my USSSA rule book today. Umpire made right call based on rule 4 section 1. ?I would think ASA ?would be the same. ? ?Under a dead ball two things must happen before runners can advance. ?1 Pitcher must be back in the circle and the umpire must state play ball.

One of my friends said something to the same affect - here is the kicker in that. I have yet to see an umpires signal for a pitch or state play ball when the ball has been fouled. I will check my online rule books again.

 

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I believe that when the home plate umpire tells the pitcher to pitch, the ball is in play, much the same as when "TIME" is called and awarded by the umpire, the ball is then put back in play by the umpire, and subsequently by the actions of the pitcher.

Whenever the batter requests time to get set in the box, and the umpire puts up their hands to make the pitcher aware that time is called, I almost always see umpires point to the pitcher and say play, although they jump the gun sometimes and don't let the batter get set, pet peeve is quick pitching batters, umpires have a responsibility when a pitcher is doing this to make certain the batter is set, not just put the ball in play when she drops her arm, nowhere does it say that the pitcher may or should pitch the moment the batter drops her arm and has 2 feet in the box. Like I say just a pet peeve, I have a way to end it but that is for another thread.

 

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As Bretman stated below under legal pitches you can get these rule books on line at umpire softball links. Just not ASA.

 

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The rule you cited seems to cover the issue. I guess when you get some old softball coaches together they can argue just for the fun of it.

 

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On a non-caught foul ball - play is dead once touched by the defense, or called as such by the plate umpire. Play resumes once the plate umpire directs the pitcher to pitch.


As to us old coaches arguing - it's one of the few pleasures we have left.

 

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a fouled off ball constitutes a dead ball and the ball does not go back into play until the pitcher is instructed to pitch the next ball/strike. don't make too much of this guys. why must we always push the limits? just play the game and stop trying to read between the lines and find some hidden loophole that will eventually constitute yet another "exception" to the rules.

 

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I know this is somewhat off-topic, but CincyStorm hit my pet peeve also. ?Besides, the "old" softball coaches can now argue about whether or not this is really off-topic. ? ;D ?

I have seen time after time already this year. ?The batter is in the box with their hand up asking for time, as well as the umpire holding their hand up signaling time. ?When it appears the batter is getting close to being ready, the pitchers are starting their wind up. As the umpire is pointing the finger to pitch, the ball is already on the way. ?Only one time have I actually seen the umpire call "no pitch" and that is because this girl, with her hand up calling for time, still only had one foot in the box. ?

This seems to be another of those "loopholes" that several girls have picked up. ?Is "time in" when the girl drops her hand to the bat or the umpire points. ?And if it is on the point, how can they already be in motion and in the process of delivering the ball to the plate? ?I am just trying to understand the actual ruling on this.

 

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Good answers on the live/dead ball call. After a foul ball, the ball is dead. It is not live again until the pitcher is in position to pitch and the umpire indicates "play".

If a coach tried to argue this very basic rule, my answer would be, "Sorry coach. The ball is dead on the foul and is not live until I say so. The runners cannot advance." I would hope that the coach accepts my explanation. On a basic rule like this, I'm not giving much (any?) leeway for an argument.

On the "quick pitches", with pitchers throwing to catch the batter off-guard, it is the home plate umpire's resonsibility to see that the pitcher does not pitch until the batter is set. Any pitch deemed to be a "quick pitch" should quickly be called "no pitch" by the umpire.

If the plate umpire is using good mechanics and game management, you should never see a "quick pitch" in any game.

 

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you can debate any call that violates a rule with the Ump and have a chance for an over rule or a chance to win a protest. BUT once an umpire tells you that it was "in my judgement", the subject is a waste of time. The rule book leaves allot of iterpetation open for umpires judgement calls and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Most umps will not even over turn a bad judgement call even though they know they made a mistake. That is always a bummer but we could not play the game with out them.

 

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There are times that you can go through with a protest, and win it, even if the umpire says "in my judgment...".

If the wrong rule is being applied, or being interpreted the wrong way, the umpire can't hide behind "in my judgment".

Here is an example: Long fly ball hit to the outfield. Left fielder is on the run toward the fence. She catches the ball on the run, then takes a few more steps and her momentum causes her to run into the wall. Upon the crash, the ball pops from her glove and lands on the ground.

Umpire calls the batter out on the catch.

If a coach asks for an explanation of the call, and the umpire tells him that, "In my judgment, the fielder held the ball long enough for the catch. so the batter is out", his judgment isn't going to mean squat in a protest. The rules plainly state that if the fielder loses the ball due to contact with the wall, you do not have a catch.

The umpire can claim "judgment" all day long, but that doesn't change the fact that he has misinterpreted a rule. This call could still be protested and won.

Judgment calls cannot be protested, but that does not give an umpire the right to use his "judgment" as an excuse to enforce the wrong rule.

 

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bretman,

Good stuff for sure. Good example too.

I agree if there is a rule to stand on then as a coach you have right to see it enforced and a rule book to stand on. I could see the situation you listed coming up and umps will surely rest on the judgement just like balls, strikes, force outs and ect....

 

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We probably all agree that the ball is dead when it is foul. The baserunners return to the bases. Obviously they can't leave the base until the release of ball from the pitcher.