Tryouts earlier and earlier yet again

[Mike_Craig_-_Ohio USSSA]

So I have been noticing the usual tryouts postings starting to get posted earlier and earlier (believe it or not, but seen some before Memorial Day this year). A question posted to me was why doesn't a governing body step up and put a stop to it? Now I do not shrug off or spin questions like a certain White House spokesperson does but try to reason and use logic on what is being asked and how it can be resolved where it makes sense.

Do you think that governing bodies like USA Softball, USSSA, NSA, etc. should be able to step in and stop the madness known as tryouts or silly season which I always refer to it as?

And just trying to see some good discussion on this and not fighting or insults.

 

[Admin]

A lot of Coaches I’ve talk to in recent years are all saying the same thing. That since so many Coaches are making offers to their players the first time they see them play (so there just getting prepared early). I’m aware that not really tryouts started earlier every year for discussion sake. But I’m sure it some how plays into the discussion.

I thinking having organizations/body’s being involved would be a complete mess. They can’t even agree on rules and ages eligibility.

I think this all start with Coaches and bigger organization to stop poaching players and whole teams until the end of the season. Sometime after National are over. But that’s not going to happen!

 

[Stedman00]

one thing that i keep seeing is upstart or less established teams are typically trying to run tryouts early. Either they don't know? Or hoping to land (potentially unhappy) players.

The craziest one i've seen yet is the tryout that is for 2 different weekends in Mid July. sat & sunday right in the heart of Summer. Can't imagine many players attending those.

 

[Passion4theGame]

Posting tryouts before Stingrays is absurd. If you are NOT playing mid July somewhere chances are your team is not good anyways.
As a player or parent wonder how it feels to be on a team and the coach is already thinking about NEXT season when this season just started?!
If an Athlete/ Family commits to your team & Org. then coaches should stay focused and be committed to them just the same.

 

[Mike_Craig_-_Ohio USSSA]

A lot of Coaches I’ve talk to in recent years are all saying the same thing. That since so many Coaches are making offers to their players the first time they see them play (so there just getting prepared early). I’m aware that not really tryouts started earlier every year for discussion sake. But I’m sure it some how plays into the discussion.

I thinking having organizations/body’s being involved would be a complete mess. They can’t even agree on rules and ages eligibility.

I think this all start with Coaches and bigger organization to stop poaching players and whole teams until the end of the season. Sometime after National are over. But that’s not going to happen!

Easy on that age eligibility thing. USA Softball did that on their own with no input or collaboration from anyone else. And it was the best kept secret in softball. Since our national meeting is right after the USA one, we get "intel" so to speak from some of the vendors who work both meetings. Not a peep from any of them as they knew nothing themselves. This one came out of the "blue". Or is that an old term regarding them these days?

I am not sure what any governing body could do anyway to stop it? If say USSSA said no tryouts until August 1, what would the penalties be if teams ignored it? Don't permit teams in USSSA events for breaking the rule? Make them take visitors for all games for the entire season? I know what that coach is going to say when enforcement comes, no problem we will play other groups events all year.

 

[Passion4theGame]

There's nothing thats going to stop coaches from posting tryouts earlier and earlier. I know out West (Like Arizona) they break it down into 4 season of softball, Spring, summer, fall, & winter. They hold tryouts for every season.

The whole age thing is silly in my opinion. Why try to fix what has worked for years? If it aint broke dont fix it. I will continue to use Jan. 1 for my teams moving forward. Now if there happens to be a young lady who is a little behind then yea i will recommend taking advantage of that Aug. 1 date change stuff.

 

[Mike_Craig_-_Ohio USSSA]

The whole age thing is silly in my opinion. Why try to fix what has worked for years? If it aint broke don't fix it. I will continue to use Jan. 1 for my teams moving forward. Now if there happens to be a young lady who is a little behind then yea i will recommend taking advantage of that Aug. 1 date change stuff.

This is just my humble guess at what they are trying to do and is not verified nor the gospel. I think they are going to try to revive their Gold program again. Years ago, the ASA and then USA Gold Nationals was the place to be. The only way to get there was for State tournament winners and through the USA Gold National Qualifier program.

And they had the teams to show for it in the Ohio ASA states every year as the 14u and 16u was the place to be for Ohio teams and was a who's who of the best teams in the state each year. And those USA National Qualifiers originally had teams coming from several states away trying to "steal" a berth from what they perceived to be "weaker" teams over here. And only a few events ever had that status like Sluggerfest in Cincinnati and occasionally other events if they would pay the bid fee.

They lost all of those So Cal people and teams when they all jumped off and started PGF and they have been in decline ever since. PGF swallowed up the other states that had hotbeds like Texas, etc. and got those teams to start working to get into their big dance in Huntington Beach each year.

That is just my opinion and again it is not verified nor spoken to anyone with USA to verify. I'm sure someone in the know about USA Softball's program can get on here and correct me on how great this move is for all of softball in general.

 

[daboss]

Mike Craig's points on the topic ring with a lot of truth. There is so much to think about here.

Passion4theGam is spot on in so many ways.

Personally, without a way to police it I don't see how to enforce things. I suppose you could threaten a with a penalty fee when the actually register their team with the sanctions but how would you ever prove it? Just sounds like another nightmare for people like Mr. Craig.

There's always those teams out there that because of injury or lack of commitment are unable to finish a planned season. Their rosters are suddenly short players. Most of the time it's a pitcher or catcher missing. Those broken teams are scouring everywhere to try and get those elusive players. They hope to salvage the existing season. They hope the next season isn't a disaster. I don't know how you could ever stop that.

It inherently almost always comes down to 2 things, playing time and the cost. Families from broken teams are hoping if they get onto a team early it'll give them an edge for more playing time next season. They may be enticed with a cheaper fee that in some cases swell after they commit. Internal conflict, somebody is not happy, and the cycle of distaster starts all over again.

Welcome to travel softball. ----------------Dang, we all must be crazy!!!

 

[Passion4theGame]

They want top teams to play their Gold Nationals again? Simple, Bite the bullet and invite those top teir teams they want and offer free entry. Offer NO stay to play bull crap! Might lose some money to compete with PGF TCS and now AFC. If their not willing to do that I personally dont see them building their "Gold" brand back anytime soon.

 

[Mike_Craig_-_Ohio USSSA]

They want top teams to play their Gold Nationals again? Simple, Bite the bullet and invite those top teir teams they want and offer free entry. Offer NO stay to play bull crap! Might lose some money to compete with PGF TCS and now AFC. If their not willing to do that I personally dont see them building their "Gold" brand back anytime soon.

If it is what they are trying to do, they sure have an uphill battle in front of them. PGF has the market cornered in the areas that USA used to own with one of them being So. Cal and Texas. They have other areas pretty sewn up also in terms of the really high end National type teams with almost unlimited budgets and chock full of high end D1 prospects on every team.

I think on STP and other things, there is no getting that horse back in the barn on those. Directors like me used to try to use housing groups for Nationals or States so we could get comp rooms just to house tournament staff and officials. I never was worried about rebates as I considered not having a 5 figure hotel bill for a week long event enough of a rebate. Now TD's want free rooms and a big rebate check on top of everything else or the weekend is a wash to them. Look at the insane amount of $$ that Triple Crown Sports makes on the Sparkler in Colorado. It is more than some people earn in an entire 3-4 year period.

 

[KinPer]

So I have been noticing the usual tryouts postings starting to get posted earlier and earlier (believe it or not, but seen some before Memorial Day this year). A question posted to me was why doesn't a governing body step up and put a stop to it? Now I do not shrug off or spin questions like a certain White House spokesperson does but try to reason and use logic on what is being asked and how it can be resolved where it makes sense.

Do you think that governing bodies like USA Softball, USSSA, NSA, etc. should be able to step in and stop the madness known as tryouts or silly season which I always refer to it as?

And just trying to see some good discussion on this and not fighting or insults..

I believe it is necessary to step in when there is a complaint.
And it should not be a complaint from one person, but a collective complaint. Then it makes sense to step in. Just my opinion

 

[KinPer]

If it is what they are trying to do, they sure have an uphill battle in front of them. PGF has the market cornered in the areas that USA used to own with one of them being So. Cal and Texas. They have other areas pretty sewn up also in terms of the really high end National type teams with almost unlimited budgets and chock full of high end D1 prospects on every team.

I think on STP and other things, there is no getting that horse back in the barn on those. Directors like me used to try to use housing groups for Nationals or States so we could get comp rooms just to house tournament staff and officials. I never was worried about rebates as I considered not having a 5 figure hotel bill for a week long event enough of a rebate. Now TD's want free rooms and a big rebate check on top of everything else or the weekend is a wash to them. Look at the insane amount of $$ that Triple Crown Sports makes on the Sparkler in Colorado. It is more than some people earn in an entire 3-4 year period.

Sometimes I want to do bingo to make some real money. I like this Irish site, it has some interesting options for online bingo. Give it a try, I think you'll like it.

Of course, it wouldn't be very serious if I suggested a compromise. But maybe it will give impetus to some other thoughts.
So here's the compromise: if they want free rooms and a big rebate check, why not offer them some work? For example, wash cars, deliver mail, help the elderly or do some volunteering.

 

[Mike_Craig_-_Ohio USSSA]

I believe it is necessary to step in when there is a complaint.
And it should not be a complaint from one person, but a collective complaint. Then it makes sense to step in. Just my opinion

Ok. I will bite. What penalties could a sanctioning body put in place to stop it?

 

[KinPer]

Ok. I will bite. What penalties could a sanctioning body put in place to stop it?

If there is no sanctions mechanism at the moment, one should be developed. This is what officials do.

 

[CoachTEA]

Here is my two cents worth after doing travel ball since 2008; if by July 1st you aren't talking to your players about next season then someone else is. Frankly I started a spreadsheet after tryouts and I maintained all season of prospective players for the following season - I do that year in year out. What is different is the fact we *usually* invite everyone back (unless there are conflicts) and I am proud to say we have a pretty high retention rate. Also when I make offers for the following season, I make it clear I am not attempting to "poach them" in season with their current team. Unless the situation is dire, finish the season and honor your commitment - there are exceptions and special circumstances.

 

[Mike_Craig_-_Ohio USSSA]

If there is no sanctions mechanism at the moment, one should be developed. This is what officials do.

So you are one of those who has all the answers but no solutions to a problem? If you are going to say that officials should develop one, then what should they develop? How should they implement it? What penalties can be taken to deter the behavior in the future?

I can give you the short version for all sanctioning bodies from now and in the future, there is nothing any governing body can do to stop it unless they are the only governing body for the sport. USSSA can say no tryouts before August 1 or we will fine your team or not permit you to play in our events. If I'm a coach, then I just avoid USSSA all of the next season because there are so many choices to be had in the softball tournament market. Now if USSSA is the only governing body for the entire sport like other major sports, then any rule we implement has teeth because there is no choice but to follow or get left out.

And I know the game you are playing. You will say that is up to you to figure out and disappear from the message board. Been there and done that in the past with people like the ole Quakerman and Diceman amongst others who stirred it up then just completely disappeared. I don't personally care when team advertise for tryouts because I know there is nothing anyone can do to stop it and no amount of complaining on message boards or Facebook will help resolve peoples morals and ethics.

 

[daboss]

So you are one of those who has all the answers but no solutions to a problem? If you are going to say that officials should develop one, then what should they develop? How should they implement it? What penalties can be taken to deter the behavior in the future?

I can give you the short version for all sanctioning bodies from now and in the future, there is nothing any governing body can do to stop it unless that are the only governing body for the sport. USSSA can say no tryouts before August 1 or we will fine your team or not permit you to play in our events. If I'm a coach, then I just avoid USSSA all of the next season because there are so many choices to be had in the softball tournament market. Now is USSSA is the only governing body for the entire sport like other major sports, then any rule we implement has teeth because there is no choice but to follow or get left out.

And I know the game you are playing. You will say that is up to you to figure out and disappear from the message board. Been there and done that in the past with people like the ole Quakerman and Diceman amongst others who stirred it up then just completely disappeared. I don't personally care when team advertise for tryouts because I know there is nothing anyone can do to stop it and no amount of complaining on message boards or Facebook will help resolve peoples morals and ethics.

We've dealt with people like this for so long it's frustrating to even reply to somebody with such an outlook or attitude. I categorize them as "Ifizyou" people and hope someday this word can be entered into Websters or Wikipedia as a word of substance. Ifizyou people are best explained by example "If I was you I'd do this" If I was you I'd do that" and merely means they are experts without knowledge or the willingness to live by their own terms.

I have been surrounded by Ifizyou's in business and in my personal life forever. I normally nod my head graciously and move along but some times a guy just needs to call the idiots out. I get it.

 

[CARDS]

Honestly; Teams hold tryouts (especially in your top tier organizations) every weekend they go out to play. (Some even attend HS games looking for that next best thing especially your showcase teams with a blended age group that does not play for a specific national (and there are more and more of these teams forming).

The product a team puts on the on the field, how the ladies are coached, how the coach communicates with TDs, word of mouth from players and players, events "invited too" played in etc. all come in to play as parents look for the next option for their DD that nowadays, "has no start or, end date" as long as they are playing.

The explosion of the non sanction mega tournaments and large organizations has changed the landscape of the game over the past 20 years.
The feeder teams connected to larger organizations (organizations with 2 or more teams at each age group) give them an recruiting advantage especially; with the decline in sanctioning bodies oversite and new sanctioning bodies the past 20 years.
Add in the over all decline in sport participation from recreational to high school everyone is scrambling to keep a float or competitive.
I am also seeing a lot more open events EX: HS age or blended younger age groups that use to only happen in fall ball but now its during summer events. Its hard to have proper sanctioning if 14-18 teams are playing in the same event. These events generally have day rostering or weekend rostering as well some open roster especially at the Adult 18+-23U and I am OK with this at the adult level.

USSSA did a good job for a long time and, IMO has the best website and player/team tracking system but it is not used to its full benefit to maintain player and team eligibility. I remember a time when USSSA had A/B/C tournaments and teams played in their classification and bodies would freeze a roster but USSSA also ran a ton of events and leagues back then.

Now, mainly due to needing to fill tournaments it appears most USSSA events are blended classifications with just a few exceptions.
USSSA may be able to look at what they already have to make changes but I am not 100% sure that the softball community as a whole wants more oversite especially with the price to play today and teams not playing for any specific national.

ASA/USA at one time would issue player wallet cards with insurance info on the back and sanctioning information that included a photo however, with the trend of teams wanting to play "non sanctioned events", players jumping from team to team and families not really interested in sanctioned nationals due to cost many sanctioning bodies now just use a day roster, weekend roster turned in the opening day of the event and hope the teams have insurance on all the players. Back in the late 90s early 2000s Patty and Don did a very good in SW Ohio with rosters and eligibility. USA softball needs to rebrand in 2024 if they want to get back into a lead role with the top tier organizations and teams but like others have stated, that ship may have already sailed.

The sport has changed a lot over the past 20 years, families have changed, economy has changed, player / parent goals and expectations have changed and yes, recruiting and tryouts have evolved to what we have today. I don't see it changing anytime soon.

 

[Mike_Craig_-_Ohio USSSA]

USSSA did a good job for a long time and, IMO has the best website and player/team tracking system but it is not used to its full benefit to maintain player and team eligibility. I remember a time when USSSA had A/B/C tournaments and teams played in their classification and bodies would freeze a roster but USSSA also ran a ton of events and leagues back then.

Now, mainly due to needing to fill tournaments it appears most USSSA events are blended classifications with just a few exceptions.
USSSA may be able to look at what they already have to make changes but I am not 100% sure that the softball community as a whole wants more oversite especially with the price to play today and teams not playing for any specific national.

We do have a good system compared to the alternatives. Some of it is still a mystery to me at times, but it is there if I ever figure it out. The oversight is a great topic there. We keep trying to tighten up the lower class programs and push these teams into playing better competition more suited to their team strengths. But every time we move a team up, they just go some place else that will let them play "down" and dominate. With these non-sanction tournament/event companies popping up in Ohio (TNT, Midwest Tournament Factory, Sports Force Parks) just to name a few, they mix all classifications together most of the time anyways. They run under their own set of rules and most of them have no reclassification processes anyway so win all of the events if you want to.

It is making me think of slow-pitch all over again as that started to happen towards the end of my tenure in it. Then you had an open level and everyone else was a rec team. Or at least they claimed to be so they could win everything.

 

[Stedman00]

The problems that I keep seeing are many fold with regards to try outs and teams.

Part 1 - small solo team starts, and may have some success with local small unsanctioned type tourneys. We've all seen them, 4-6 teams, maybe even pay at the plate. Well the small team wins a couple and gets a little 'froggy'. Then comes along 2nd year 12U or 14u, they get sanctioned with USSSA, or USA, and "hell, we won a bunch, guess we are A level". SO, when they now get in a B/C tourney (or Open) and get totally blasted tourney after tourney, it's everyone else fault.

Part 2 - This same team is when they moved to 14U, start posting on social media and such, come join our A level or Showcase tourney, When they are really pretty clueless as to what they really entails, and are leading people ( and themselves astray). Then when the beatings start, and noone really comes to watch, it's someone else's fault.

Part 3 - And the mommy / daddy ball team that forms so Princess Petunia can pitch or play SS every inning, implodes because coaching is lacking, parents upset, etc. But yet again, it's someone else's fault they can't win games (or truly be competitive).

people are not stupid, they can check and research team's records. tourney machine, game changer, etc. All the grandoise claims of college recruiting help, etc. IT IS NOT AN OVERNIGHT THING.

You know why the best teams and Orgs aren't advertising and having tryouts in early July? They don't need to. They have proven track record of success and have players asking them all the time for chances to tryout come August.

There are teams for every level of skill, no question. The problems arise when people really can't judge the levels.