Hitting and Hitters Discussion Upper Body Strenght for Hitting

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I put a lot of faith in Bradden Marcello as to strength and conditioning techniques especially after meeting him and seeing the athletes he has produced with his techniques....TEAM USA.

I am not familiar with Bradden's work but will look into it. There are a number of strength and conditioning professionals who use a variety of tehniques to "produce" high caliber athletes.


No medical studies have been done to my knowledge about the exact effects from doing the leg presses or squats.

So if there are no studies, why would you claim that the squat has any affect on the development or fusion of these bones???

almost every site you visit use an MLB player and describe what an elite swing should look like. ?

I have not read enough of your posts to get an understanding of your philosophy on hitting or posture, so I can't comment on everything you wrote, but I have seen plenty of video of college softball players used on other forums to represent an elite swing.
 
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Bill_Vasko said:
No medical studies have been done to my knowledge about the exact effects from doing the leg presses or squats.

So if there are no studies, why would you claim that the squat has any affect on the development or fusion of these bones???


As I mentioned there are no studies as to the C sections connection however Brandon's recommended not doing the squats and inclined leg presses until they are freshmen in college because the bones have not fused yet.

almost every site you visit use an MLB player and describe what an elite swing should look like.

Yes they do and their balance points are different so their swing will look a little different however everyone wants to look at the male who is a little more upright than most females especially during their load and toe touch in my opinion. The swing mechanics I would agree are the same and how to teach it would be similar and that is where I think calling posture is not balance and the balance points are indeed different in my opinion and should be taught differently in my opinion so they feel it. Again look up the definition of posture and balance and in posture balance is not mentioned, so why would I tell our kids it is something it is not just to conform with what someone else tells me it is? That is a choice I make when teaching.

I have not read enough of your posts to get an understanding of your philosophy on hitting or posture, so I can't comment on everything you wrote, but I have seen plenty of video of college softball players used on other forums to represent an elite swing.


Bill you are correct however I do not necessarily agree with everyone as I like you have different opinions what works well.

I am very close to what Don Slaught teaches using Right View Pro which is not a hitting technique however software allowing you to compare what the best hitters in the World do or have in common.

I also agree with his instruction methods presented in his baseball DVD.

I hope I answered some of your questions.
 
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Hitter, thanks for the response.

I did not know about the fusion of the bones, so I am going to investigate further. I do not have my kids do leg press--there are too many issues with the back and there are better exercise alternatives. I think squats are a valuable exercise and will continue to use them unless I can find further evidence that it affects the pelvic/vertebral areas in the female. One thing with training females is that I have found that the majority of them do not train with the same intensity that males do--they don't push themselves to the limits of their training loads. I'm not sure if it is a female characteristic in general, or a result of the lack of training opportunities for females--nature vs. nurture.

And I agree--there is definitely a difference between posture and balance........
 
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Bill take a look at this article and I am not looking for a debate rather sharing information about what is easy to find...

Again I do not look at posture as balance it is what it is balance and you will see it in this article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/02/AR2008060202070.html

Beutler compares an ACL rupture to a sudden mechanical malfunction. The body fails to perform a task that it has successfully executed thousands of times, and a surge of energy -- rather than being absorbed in the lower leg and up through the trunk -- sinks into the knee and rips apart a crucial component.


Bill we say slow to load soft to step on a flexed front knee.

"What we are trying to do with these girls is reprogram their minds to jump and land in such a way that there is some slack in the system," he explained. "We think one of the big things is to avoid rotation of the hips and knees. We want everything in line. Hips over knees. Knees over ankles. Ankles over toes. If you had to tell someone one thing, it would be: Land softly. Use your knee as a hinge."


Bend at the waist and soften the knees in that sequence.

Beutler is also associated with a National Institutes of Health-funded ACL study that is following students at the three major U.S. military academies. Led by researchers from the University of North Carolina's School of Public Health, that study is building a database of thousands of subjects and, using sophisticated equipment, compiling the digitized images of their jumping and landing forms. The goal is to identify common risk factors among those who go on to suffer ACL ruptures.
Beutler's project is smaller and much more low-tech. Twenty-five teams playing in Montgomery County (14 of them girls' teams) are enrolled. At the beginning of the season, each player is videotaped as she jumps and lands from a small platform. They are graded by the researchers according to their perceived risk for ACL injury. One whose knees cave inward on impact, for instance, would be judged high-risk. The players are videotaped again at the end of the season to see whether the exercise program has improved their form.
Beutler's exercises fit on a single sheet of paper, and he notes that the videotaping takes place with a camera "that anyone could buy for a couple of hundred bucks." Beutler and his research assistants have begun conducting customized exercise programs for players deemed at high risk.
"This is the wave of the future, where we can bring prevention to this level, out of the laboratory and onto a field," Beutler said. "I think we are getting to the point where we can look in real time and say, with 95 percent certainty, 'You are at low risk. You're at moderate risk. And you're at high risk.' And we can design programs for each of those athletes."
Beutler did not want any recreational-level teams in his trial because they move more slowly and create so little force that they don't stand much chance of hurting themselves. Silver Spring United, a mix of varsity high school players and some junior varsity performers, competes in the classic division of Montgomery County Soccer Inc. "I saw a need [for injury prevention], and I went looking for something," said their coach, Karen Giacopuzzi, who signed up with Beutler after learning that he was seeking teams in the area.
Her players have made ACL prevention part of their routine. The captains led the exercises, with Giacopuzzi standing off to the side. In the season before entering Beutler's program, team members suffered two knee injuries, both of them meniscus tears that required surgery. They have had no significant knee injuries in the 18 months since.
Michelle Morris, 16, caught Beutler's attention because he thought she looked like the best athlete on the field. She moved with a low center of gravity and a springiness, the opposite of the stiff, upright gait that causes alarm. She was among several of the Silver Spring players who said she thought the exercises had improved her form. "I think my balance is way better now," Morris said. "I never learned how to land properly. I fell down a lot, but now, not at all."

The response was significant to Beutler because several studies have identified poor balance as a predictor of ACL injuries. An athlete who loses balance may twist her body at inopportune times -- for example, with one leg planted and extended out from her body -- while she is stopping or trying to change direction.

Bend at the waist and soften the knees in that sequence or sequential core loading.

I hope this helps in understanding why we do what we do in terms of balance and hitting.
 
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Bill this is probably the best article I have found so far and offers a training package and explains the differences.

I put the link and some of the article here to give you an idea of what it is about...I hope we have not wasted your time on this.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0879b.htm


Why do female athletes hurt their knees so often - and how can they protect themselves from knee injuries?
Page 1 2
Girls and women are much more at risk of serious knee injuries than their male counterparts. But research has shown that strength training has an astonishingly protective effect. Owen Anderson describes the curious vulnerability of the female knee and offers an exercise programme designed to keep it injury-free.
It's sad but true: female athletes who take part in sports involving jumping and 'cutting' (soccer, basketball, volleyball, gymnastics etc) have a risk of knee injury that is 4-6 times higher than for men taking part in the same sports. (1).
In the United States, the knee injury rate among female collegiate athletes runs at a stunning one per 1,000 'athlete-exposures' (an 'athlete-exposure' is simply a workout or competition). With over 100,000 college women taking part in organised sports each year, there are more than 10,000 knee injuries per year - or more than 1,000 per month (given a nine-month school year). To put it another way, if just 50 teams with 20 female athletes each carry out their workouts on a particular day, on average at least one serious knee injury would result (2).
Many of these injuries are devastating - from both a personal and financial standpoint. In the United States alone there are an estimated 2,200 complete ruptures of the knee's key internal supporting structure - the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) - in female collegiate athletes each year, with the total cost of medical treatment running to millions of pounds. The average cost of care, including ACL reconstruction and rehabilitation, is about ?11,000 per patient, which would add up to more than ?24 million per year. In addition, a female athlete with an ACL rupture will usually miss an entire sporting season, may lose her athletic scholarship, and is likely to experience significant mental pain and stress(3). Bear in mind that these figures are probably just 'the tip of the iceberg', since they omit school athletes completely. In the US, as in the UK, there are many more participants at secondary school than at college, so the total number and cost of injuries in secondary schools are likely to be significantly greater. In the United States, there are probably about 20,000 serious knee injuries among female high school athletes per year, ratcheting the total cost of care for all female athletes - for knee problems alone - to about ?70 million. Injury rates in the UK are likely to be similar, which would imply a total of more than 6,000 serious knee injuries per year, at a cost of ?14 million. Secondary school girls have knee surgery five times more often than boys, and knee surgeries make up 70 percent of all athletic-related surgeries for young women(4).
 
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Howard
This is very interesting to me.

I helped coach girls basketball for 5-6 years and fastpitch for 6-7 years and I can think back to different girls that have landed to straightleged, and not on a flexed knee and came away limping.

This has happened quite a few times over the years.



Jump in the warm ups - I like this
Jump forward, backwards, side to side.
Jump with a flexed knee, land softly, weight above knees, knees above toes.
You are giving your body muscle memory. You are telling your body to land correctly.


How many times does a girl run through first, stretch to be safe and come away limping. If her body remebered to touch the base with a flexed knee, I dont think that would happen.


I have a sophmore and a 8th grader that play 3 sports and we will work on this.
Practice landing correctly. Loosen up that area of the body.


I always learn something being around you howard. :)



Thanks
Straightleg
 
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Howard - I have always wondered how much genetics and body make-up play in determining how injury prone an athlete is. Is a certain "body type" more prone to injuries? I know Ohio State is doing a lot of research about specific injuries in women's sports. I think strength training is a key element.

You know how my DD is built. She has always been an animal when it comes to hitting the weights. I may be biased, but I don't think she looks like a body builder, but she is in pretty good shape. Being a pitcher, she focuses on a lot of core and legs. Last year, she broke the record at her school for her softball team in the leg press. She DOES NOT have massive legs, but she is pretty strong. My point is that if girls want to play in college, lose the fear of messing up your "girlie figure". Not to worry, because unless she's shooting testosterone and steroids, it won't happen!!
 
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Look at the links we posted and stay opened minded...Crystl feels Brandons work outs are the best she has ever done....a lot of stretching, jumping and what she feels is core strength and flexibility.

My basic philosophy is to stay away from excessive amounts of weights ie leg presses or squats until they are a freshman in college and then be smart about what you do.

Remember when she was here she said she was sore the next day and had not had that kind of workout before when hitting....and she never lifted a weight and she kept getting quicker and quicker with her swing technique.

Yes she is fit and now ready to go!

She must be like her Mom!
 
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I think she got her athleticism from her mom and her stubborn streak from me! ;D Yes she was sore after that workout. It really showed how much of her body she WASN'T using for hitting! We hit last evening and she's doing great correcting her hand path. The front arm is working a LOT better!

I remember when she was 12 we went to OSU's winter camp in the Woody Hayes facility. They had a couple of the Olympic team members there who were running the kids through the "Olympic Warmup" they do before every game. Now, bear in mind she was only 12 then, and had NO IDEA what a workout like that was! The good thing was it gave her a taste of what the best in the world do!
 
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Hitter, thanks for the info, definitely not a waste of time!

I agree that special attention needs to be paid to females to prevent knee injuries. I think that a proper strength training program can help prevent those injuries. I believe that squats should be part of that program. Here are some good links in preventing knee injuries:

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Sep/25/br/br2731058946.html

http://www.sportsmetrics.net/


I am more interested in learning about the bone fusion that you mentioned. It is not a concept that I am familiar with and I'd be interested in learning if there is any link to squats and the incidence of injury or problems during pregnancy. Squats are an integral part of almost any strength program administered by a strength and conditioning professional at the college level.
 
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Hitter, here is some video footage of Brandon Marcello and softball olympians. Shows the players doing romanian deadlifts and hang cleans--with a lot more than 8 pounds ;) Also he talk about their power phase in their training cycles, which would be heavy weights, low reps.

Wasn't there supposed to be a DVD by Marcello? I can't find it anywhere.....
 
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How old? My 12 year old does 25 push ups and 25 sits every day. Too young for weights or bands at this time!
 
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How old? My 12 year old does 25 push ups and 25 sits every day. Too young for weights or bands at this time!
I would like to read more about weight training and age limits. Can you tell me where you got this information?
 
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Bill he had the DVD at the 2005 NFCA meeting...it had his whole routine on it however it could be since he was with Baylor at the time that maybe it was their video ie Baylor's. When he was at Baylor you could go on line and view it. I will ask Crystl when I see her about her work outs again.

The main point of focus was not to over do it, the squats and leg presses until the kids are in college. The high school coaches by far were over loading them as was discussed at the meeting and confirmed by the variation each coach stated they were doing and this is when Brandon said they should not be doing those routines or that amount of weight until they are a freshman in college due to the uncertainty of the fusion taking place especially for the females. By seeing and viewing the articles for ACL injuries, the width of the hips, the difference of length of muscles in the female the narrower notch in the knee it makes sense to me to error on the side of caution as some of these coaches think if 20 pounds is good 200 will work even better!

I copied this for your thoughts...appreciate any insight you may have on this subject.

"Pelvic girdle and pelvis. The lower limb, girdle, called the pelvic girdle, is formed by the right and left hipbones, which are also known as the ossa coxae. The hipbones, sacrum, and coccyx form the boney pelvis.
The paired hipbones are the broadest bones in the body. They are formed in the adult by fusion of the ilium, ischium, and pubis. These three bones are separate in infants, children, and young adolescents; but the bones generally fuse between the ages of 15 and 17." From page 209, Human Anatomy & Physiology Second Edition.

www.educ.uidaho.edu/pep300/PEP%20300%20Pelvic%20Girdle2.ppt
 
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Another device that's been around a while and seemly underutilized is the medicine ball. They had me doing all sorts of "fun" things with them after they put my bicep back together.
 
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i started doing light weights when i was 12 in my basement which meant....like when your benching, instead of putting on as much weight as you can lift and doing less reps...do less weight and more reps...last year in eighth grade i started lifting and conditioning in the winter w/ our highschool team...thats when i started doing heavier weights........it always helps to work out w/ friends or in groups...it makes it more fun...and it'll keep you from slacking or giving up....especially when it's under the supervision of the highschool coach
 
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So, what I am getting from this discussion is that it might be prudent to re-examine overall training methods for adolescents? Maybe it would be wise to separate "strength training", "conditioning", and "fundamental skills development" into three very distinct and separate categories.

Focus 100% on "skills development" - hitting, pitching, fielding, etc., from the start, gradually add in "conditioning" and don't start "strength training" until about the college level?

Actually, that makes a LOT of sense to me. Get the "body movements" correct FIRST, then focus on making those movements quicker and more powerful. If you don't have the first part correct, it seems you would be building strength to reinforce flawed fundamentals. Swinging DOWN on the ball FASTER still won't make you a better hitter!
 
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After talking with trainers this is like trying to hit a moving target...they keep learning more each day about female injuries and how to prevent it from happening. In just four years I have seen the teams warming up much differently not only from an international team stand point but in colleges also trying to find a way for the players not to get injured.

I will ask Jennie and Crystl to comment on this at the clinic. When we did a clinic at Middletown High School Crystl incorporated the ladder drills with the fielding glove on and at the end of going through the ladder they had to spin and field a ground ball and throw it to a pop up net with a tee used as a target.

There just seems to be a lot of variation in training the females like the males and there is so much information out there as to why not to do it exactly the same way because of knee, pelvic, spine orientation, length of muscles difference that talking about it makes sense.

Spend some time on the net and type in female injuries and see what you find yourself and the studies that have been done....
 
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I have some info on training children on my forum that is relly good, however my forum has crashed and I have not had a chance to get it back up. I'll post a link when I get it running again.

Hitter, which clinic will they be at?
 

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