What are you willing to do to win?

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I'm interested in responses from eveyone, but mostly you coaches. I've been an occasional reader of threads on this site for approximately 2 years and have only posted a few times. I do not recall reading anything on this or any other softball websites that has touched on what I am interested in knowing. If it has been dicussed before, I apologize, but I could not believe what I saw, what I was told and wanted to get some outside opinions.
I was able to see some of the games on Sunday at the NSA State Tournament and at first wasn't sure what was going on in one of the later games on Sunday. After further investigation it appears that the age old baseball tradition of the "bean-ball" unfortunately appears to be part of girls fastpitch softball in Ohio. I only got one side of the story but everyone I talked to including the young lady that got drilled was sure it was on purpose. She said and I quote " I had no chance of getting out of the way, if I hadn't shrugged my shoulder the fastball she threw at me would have hit me in the side of the helmet. As it was, it hit square at the top of my arm/shoulder, then hit me in the helmet" unquote. She said "if they were trying to render me ineffective their mission was accomplished because I couldn't hardly swing my bat the rest of the day my shoulder hurt so bad".
She said that she had been hit earlier in the day by another pitcher from the same team but the umpire did not know it, so she went ahead an batted and that in approx. 100 plate appearences this year prior to Sunday she had not been hit by a pitch and over the last 4 years and approx. 600 plate appearences in travel ball she has only been hit 6-8 times.
I've only been watching girls fastpitch for approx. 7-8 years which includes a few state and national tournaments, allot of local tournaments, rec ball, college games, college world series, some high school and a limited number of professional womens fastpitch games and I don't think I've ever seen a pitcher hit a batter on purpose, or if they did, it wasn't obvious thats what they were trying to do.
What I am interested in knowing is, how many of you coaches have experienced this or how many of you utilize the "bean-ball" and what your thoughts are? (I'm not sure anyone will fess-up to calling the bean-ball but thought I would ask anyhow) Also, what I would like to know from you coaches is, if your pitching/defense isn't good enough to stop one girl, why wouldn't you intentionally walk her as opposed to intentionally throwing a 55 to 58 (guess) mph fastball hitting her and possibly hurting her? They (the people I talked to said they were pretty sure they tried to hit what they perceived to be their other big threat several times on Sunday but didn't get the job done). I also saw that.
And my last question encompasses the subject title, would you as a coach be willing to call the "bean-ball" for the sake of winning?
I think its a terribly sad day for girls fastpitch if thats where its headed and a sad indication of what apparently some coaches are teaching teenage girls its alright to do for the sake of winning. I've never seen a trophy, title, etc. or a situation in fastpitch softball that justifies that kind of behavior not even the CWS title. Unfortunately it resembles a situation from the not to distant past from the Olympics. Does the names Karrigan/Harding ring any bells.

 

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OK,
I will be the first to answer your question. ?I, nor any coach that I know (and I know many coaches) do not adher to the practice of intentionally hitting a batter. ?Over the years I have coach several all Ohio pitchers that have amazing control, but they would have a difficult time hitting a batter even if they tried - simply because it is contrary to the muscle memory they developed over the years. ?I have yet to see any pitcher hit a batter for any other reason except for a wild pitch. ? Is the scenerio you described possible? ?Yes. ?But the most likely scenerio is that the girl is "wild". ?A girl with poor control can appear to be intentionally throwing at a batter. ?Unless there is clear evidence otherwise (coach jummping up and high fiving her for hitting the batter, etc) it is difficult for me to believe that any girl is good enough to hit a helmet on command. ?I don't doubt what you said and that the batter felt it was intentiional. ?I just have a hard time believing that any girl that is accurate enough to hit a helmet on command would need to throw at a batter. ?That degree of command would make her an imposing pitcher that should not be afraid of any batter. ?That is just my humble opinion.

 

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I'll answer a question with a question. If it's possible in baseball, could it be possible in softball? Nothing surprises me anymore.........

 

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Johnnies - when my daughter played I know of a situation where a pitcher from a rival team hit our pitcher at NSA States - in two consecutive years. She smiled at her before and after the pitch hit her. Believe me those were on purpose. I do not in my wildest dreams think the coach had anything to do with it, It was simply the opposing pitcher getting back at our pitcher.

 

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I haven't heard of anyone intentionally hitting a good batter, but I wouldn't be surprised if they hit a player that continually plays dirty.

I have seen a player continually behave that way this year. She has gone out of her way to knock players over, get in the base path to prohibit them from running and I have seen her try to PUSH someone off the bag in order to try and tag them out after the play is over.

#1 it is dangerous play and #2 reeks of poor sportsmanship.

If I were a pitcher that would be the player I would be tempted to "bean" not the good hitter.

I'm not saying that happened to the girl in question. Most pitchers I know will intentionally walk them not hit them. If the team hit the good batter on purpose then they are just as poor sports as the girl I was talking about. The sport doesn't need those types of players or pitchers.

 

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Both my daughters are pitchers and could hit a batter if they chose. Needless to say, spouse and I would not tolerate that type of play.

This past winter I saw a pitcher twice pitch a ball intentionally so far inside that the batter had to jump (2 in a row). She knew she wouldn't hit the batter, but she wanted the batter to know that she didn't appreciate that she was calling her pitches while a runner on second base. This pitcher is not on our team, but the pitcher had the control to know how far inside she could go without hitting the batter--the batter knew they were warning pitches.

 

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I would really like to say that there isn't coaches like that out there, but there are, not many but they are there. In my years of coaching (10) I've seen it twice, and both times the coach called time out, went to the mound, and then the pitch was thrown right at the batter. Once was this year and the other about 5 years ago. But I can also say that I know girls out there have "grudges" against one another and they will intentionally hit that batter, like it or not, these girls can be mean just like the boys can, and like it or not, to them, it's part of the game. I always tell my pitchers that if the batter is great, be greater and just strike them out, if they hit, then strike them out next time, these girls (the ones that hit batters) need to realize that they are putting their team in jeporady when the inteneionally put a runner on base rather than let the batter earn it.

 

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My kid is a pitcher. In her first year of travel ball (12u), she was hit in back to back at bats by the opposing pitcher. In this case, I believe it was intentional because the pitcher smiled after doing it and didn't come close to hitting anyone else that game.
I have also seen a batter hit on purpose at the high school level but this was not done by an Ohio team.
Getting hit by a pitch is a part of the game but if it is done on purpose and the coach supported doing it, he or she has no place in our game.

 

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I would have to say that I thought it was done so seldomly that it wouldn't be a point to be brought up. However, after this last weekend having our Pitcher hit in the elbow in the third inning I have to re-evaluate what is possible.

After our pitcher had shut the other team down and had already hit a double off of their pitcher, it would be a huge coincidence that their pitcher would throw a fastball inside that far and quick after using nothing but drops and curves up to that point.

It was also interesting that their pitcher didn't even ask how she was after the game or apologize, just ignored her. No other batters even came close to getting hit,

But it did the job, it knocked our pitcher out for the rest of the weekend! I was also told that this seemed to more common in college. Can anybody shed some light in that arena?

By the way this is 18U, they know how to pitch! They know what they are doing! I think it should not be tolerated.

 

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I think the question addressed here is "intentionally". I would have to think that for a girl to intentionally hit a batter they would have to have superb control, and this would be more likely at a higher age group. My dd thought she was hit intentionally last weekend (mainly b/c she was the opposing pitcher and the only one hit in the game). I told her I didn't think so, the girl would primarily throw strikes, but at 10U sometimes mechanics get sorted and pitches get away. As for how a pitcher behaves after someone is hit it depends on the girl, if my dd hits a batter (has happened, none intentionally) the first thing I tell her is to let it go and focus on the next pitch.

 

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First off I don't condone intentionally beaning any batter. DD if she wanted could drill a batter, she has never done so intentionally, but I know of a couple of coaches if they ever stepped in better duck. The win at all cost does not teach anything about sportsmanship and is dangerous especially at the older levels. I just hope that it is a very few coaches that would go this route. I know when both my dds get hit they aren't happy about it, but also know that its a part of the game.

 

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My dd pitches at the 12u level. ?I might add that she has hit a batter, well to be quite honest, in her first few months, she hit alot of batters. ?We have figured out why that was happening and made the appropriate changes. ?Now when she hits a batter, we know she didn't "open up". ?All it takes is to miss one little step in mechanics or to plant your stride foot one inch off target and you have a hit batter. ?Even after working on the probelm, there is one little (tiny) girl that my dd hits almost everytime she is up to bat. ?It is not intentional. ?My dd says, "I don't know why I hit her." ?And she means that. ?It is almost like a psychological block. ?This is a VERY sweet little girl. ?There are no issues between the 2 of them. ?

On the other hand, someone stated that they don't believe a girl in the younger ages group could hit a batter on call. ?I would not bet money on that one. ?

Girls can be vicious towards each other. ? We can talk until we are blue in the face about sportsmanship to our lovely young ladies, it is not like talking to boys. ?You put 2 female rivals against each other, and it might get nasty! ?

 

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It should never be condoned nor ever even a thought. For those that choose to, you are the ones who have to look in the mirror each day. As for the coaches out there, how many batters do you allow your pitcher stay in four after hitting them? My personal rule is four and then I just tell them, hey your'e just having a bad day and come back next time and get em. The girls I have are younger, so they do end up wild a bit.

I know some just leave them to struggle, not sure if that's the right word, but some still leave them no matter how many are hit.

 

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Like you herd if possible in baseball, maybe also in softball. I have had the intintions of having my catcher miss a pitch to get the umpire for some calls that had been made. But we didn't carry that on. So I think some coaches would call on the bean ball to win.

 

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I think that the whole idea of beaning a batter comes from us guys, not our DDs. We talk about the behavior, we see it on TV, the brothers talk about it, and our daughters think it is part of the game.

So let's all agree that we don't want that. If I ever found out that a coach told my DD to specifically try to injure another player, I would be working hard to get that coach into a new line of work.

Having said that, a pitcher may occasionally get a bit wild and accidently hit someone. We aren't talking about that.

I also acknowledge that pitching inside is part of the game. The pitcher has as much right to throw at the inside part of the plate as the batter has to stand there, and there can be some unfortunate collisions when that happens. Everyone just needs to understand the risks.

DD has hit maybe five batters total in four years. This season she caught a girl square in the helmet, the first time I have seen that since she was 9 years old. The count was 0-2, and the batter leaned in to get a better look at the change-up outside that she assumed was coming. (Unfortunately, DD often throws a chin-high fastball as a waste pitch.) Ouch.

Everyone did what they were supposed to, it just didn't turn out well for anyone.

 

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About letting it go after it happens, I think that the right thing to do is for the pitcher to be sincerely concerned, apologize, and make sure the batter is all right. It's the RIGHT thing to do.THEN let it go and focus on the next pitch.

 

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My daughter is a 14u pitcher that just played at the state tournament. She can hit her spots pretty effectively. Our girls got drilled in the head twice by the same pitcher. A girl we had beat in the Edge pastime tournament. Of course they were our best hitters and she knew it. Was it intentional, I and everyone in our stands thought it was.

 

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^^^^^^^^^ Just made every 16U team playing on sunday a suspect ^^^^^

Lynx, by stating it was a 16U team playing on Sunday without stating who it was, you now have indicted some good teams who are innocent. ?I know JoeA was playing on Sunday and has an all-Ohio Pitcher, but I also know he would never do such a thing. ?But people who read your post and dont know Joe may think you are speaking of him. You are doing a great disservice to all the other 16U teams who were not involved.

 

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In my opinion there are very few reasons for a pitcher to throw at a batter, and never any reason to throw at their head. I have seen players go into bases with late slides that were really body blocks, or cleats up aiming for an opposing players knees (intentionally or not), the list can go on. Very seldom have I seen a player ejected for that behavior. At some point I MIGHT consider throwing at an opposing batter. This may seem unsportsmanlike, but do you just let you teammates continue to take cheap shots until somebody is hurt, or possibly forfeit a game? If a batter is good and I don't want to risk that double or HR, just walk them, I don't go after a player for being good. Seeing a pitcher smile or laugh after hitting a batter is not the greatest indicator of intent. There are many kids, but girls in particular that tend to giggle in uncomfortable situations, and most times a batter is hit that is exactly what the pitcher is in is an uncomfortable situation.

 

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LEW and Lynx -

No matter who it is, the moderators will not allow names of any team mentioned in this type of discussion. ?It is sad that the unintended results is that the post casts a shadow on innocent teams. ?

Everyone, please be careful of what you post and how others may interpret what you write.

There were a couple of things that lynx said that makes it impossible to be Joe's team. 1, he does not give signs to the pitcher and 2, he does not approach players and invite them to the tyouts. That is an organization rule that Joe strongly enforces. No recruiting - not even for tryouts. His philosophy is that the organization's reputation should be the main factor for attracting girls to the tryouts.