What is "playing up"??

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Like I have said many times things are a little different in different regions. I am interested in what "playing up" is seen as in Ohio - especially in the older age groups. Over the years playing up has meant many things. Usually it revolved around two situations...age group teams playing in a tournament age division above the one they actually qualify for, and a player playing for a team above the age she would normally qualify for.
My question is this - with the sport changing at the older levels is playing up really an issue? At showcase events teams generally have multiple grad year players on the roster. In fact college coaches seem to be drawn to successful teams that play younger players along side older committed players. I realize that these players are by definition "playing up", but is it a big deal anymore once a kid is a second year 14, or is a players grad year more important?

 

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'not a big deal once they reach 2nd year of 14u.

Once they hit high school age, those who "have it" can play alongside anyone...

 

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I know they can - and most second year 14s are freshman I think - I just don't know if they join older teams for the most part. Or do the age group teams simply stay together and play "up".

 

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I may be wrong, but for the most part I believe most of the girls are staying with their own age groups in Ohio. I think most everyone would agree that the talent level in Ohio has steadily been rising over the years. Some years back, when there was less talent and fewer teams, you would see a fair amount of talented, younger girls playing up, but there wasn't as many competitive teams playing in showcase events and being scouted. So, especially as the talent level improved at the younger ages, girls were encouraged to play at their own age levels at the 14-U and 16-U to improve their chances of being seen. It sounds like what you and some others are saying now is that some of these most talented younger girls should again be considering playing up with competitive teams playing in showcase events where some of the older girls are already committed, so in effect they are playing with and against college-level players. Is that accurate? Do others agree that's more or less what has happened over the years and where we're at now?

 

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I am not saying it should or shouldn't happen. That is strictly up to the families. I just think there is a different angle in different regions. What I am seeing where I am at now is that more and more teams are playing showcases almost exclusively and those teams are made up of kids from a range of school grades. An example is for 2013 you will see most of these teams with a mixture of 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016 players on the roster. And when the teams approach the coaches during the events they always point out the young players. Coaches seem to be intrigued by the young players that are good enough to make those teams. But when I look at rosters from other areas I dont always see the same make up. So I just figured it wasnt as common place in Ohio.

 

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Gotcha, Mark ... and I think it's a good discussion for us here in Ohio ... I may have a distorted perspective of what's happened in Ohio over the years, but that is definitely my take on how we got to where I think we are today. But I live in one corner of the state and am actually coaching 12-U these days, so it may not be accurate.

 

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I think Ohio is behind a lot of the country in this. We get caught up in winning a trophie at the local NSSSA Open instead of getting these girls in front of colleges, because it makes the coach look and feel good.
Unfortunately the ones that suffer by being held back are the girls.

 

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In our soon to be former neck of the woods (NJ/EPA) once a player hits high school if they're serious about playing in college they're playing 18U Gold. 16U is pretty much reserved for "B" teams and town teams.

 

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16/18 Top level talent there is not much of a drop off if any so they can play either group.

A 13/14U player needs to stay at there age group with a few exceptions IMO. Most 13/14U players (although they may be strong players) cannot compete at a A or Gold 16/18 level on a regular basis although I agree there are some exceptions. It is the parents looking to get the player playing up and not the player herself in most cases....

As far as High School... in our case we are in a big D1 district and although some freshmen make varsity for the most part they are spot players. And do not kid yourself.... having a 14 year old in the mix with 16/18 can cause issues for one or the other...

Not to mention a lot of top level travel events do not allow players this young to compete at the 16/18U Level....

If one is realistic.... and the player has the skill and is improving their skills the player does not need to be pushed to grow up to 16/18 at the 12-14 ages.... If they have it they will play in college...

 

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[QUOTE=coachdennis;


Not to mention a lot of top level travel events do not allow players this young to compete at the 16/18U Level....


I have never heard of a tournament not allowing younger players, we do have some that do not allow college players. We played at the Team NJ Fall Showcase(Mostly 18 Gold teams) and we took girls from 2013,2014,2015.2016, qnd 2017 playing. The young kids more than held their own, the 2017 is a pitcher.

 

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I have never heard of a tournament not allowing younger players, we do have some that do not allow college players. We played at the Team NJ Fall Showcase(Mostly 18 Gold teams) and we took girls from 2013,2014,2015.2016, qnd 2017 playing. The young kids more than held their own, the 2017 is a pitcher.

While most showcase events are "open roster" and generally are put on just so the ladies can play in front of college coaches there are a few that are age specific. Especially; if it is tied into a national qualifying event the TD may ask for some proof of age ASA card roster etc and can exclude college players in the event as well.

Some tournaments post specific rules to age eligibility and others are vague and can be open to interpretation with verbiage like "No Play Ups-Players and or Teams must play in the division of state or national play etc..

In the early summer I have seen a lot of tournaments that bent play up rules because of graduation or teams that fail to have enough age specific players to field a team so they allow the team to fill the roster with younger or college players.
For younger subs that may be on another team this could create issues for them if the team is in a showcase that is also a qualifying event.

We played in a 16/18 mix showcase two years ago hosted by a college. The tournament coordinator did not want players under 15. After several discussions they allowed our 14u Morgan team to participate (and they did well) so yes, even if an event is age specific in some cases they will bend their own rules.

 

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The only restrictions that I have ever seen is at college camps. If u get into a tourney at a national level, they are not checking ID's at the door. If you decide to field a team of 2017's and want to enter a gold qualifier, they will take your cash.

Now once you play in that tourney, get ready for your whole year at gold with 2017's, since you can't go back locally and play at your appropriate age level in the same sanction. NSA, USSSA, PGF are the same way.

Now back to marks original question. Playing up is alive and well in Ohio, not at the team level, but I am sure just about all highly competitive teams have 2 to 3 girls on there roster playing up.

Coach Dennis seems to think that the evil parents are forcing little Sally to play up. It just the opposite coach. Why would a parent commit to spending so much additional cash for them to have some bragging rights.

Having been associated with numerous great players that played up, sometimes 2 age divisions, the deciding factor with all those families were, will it improve my daughters skill set and will it improve her odds of accomplishing her goal to play in college. The clear answer is a resounding YES. But it is a struggle with the differences in ages on the teams, and the different coaching personalities.

 

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I know there are some very talented girls playing up on some of the best teams in the state, but Dennis is right too that there are some girls playing up on some pretty mediocre teams, and whose parents like to brag about it. I coached a 14-U eligible girl a couple of years ago on what I would call a good, but certainly not great 16-U team, the nucleus of which was 15-U's and which could have become a strong 16-U team the following year. She was one of our better players no doubt, and as an alternative that following year, I think she would have had a good chance to make one of the top 16-U teams in the state. But instead, against my advice, her parents took her to a weak, local 18-U team and were heard on more than one occasion bragging about the fact that she was going to be playing 18-U and how she was going to be seen by all kinds of college coaches, etc. Of course, they realized part way into the summer season that the 18-U team was poor, did not get into any of the top tournaments, and they certainly weren't going to be getting any college looks. We all know girls and families who think they're going to get to play in college based on what they do in high school, and either don't play summer ball at all, or only play in rec leagues or weak local travel teams.

The point is that a lot of parents and players have no clue about how to achieve their goals. I believe that a lot of us, as travel coaches and/or parents who have been through the process already, have a responsibility to help them understand the process and their choices, even if that means that they have to move on from the teams we coach. This discussion about playing up is informational to me, and has made me think about how things have evolved and where they are probably going, and how I ought to be advising some of the girls I coach in the future.

 

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That is exactly what we see down here. At D9 almost all teams all had mixed age rosters. In fact I think very few were year specific. And as I stated earlier - when I go to talk to the coaches that are watching they ALWAYS want to know about the young ones. If they can play and hold their own they really get a head start.

gobug - while 16u might not be totally "B" down here the really strong first year 16u players are playing on the showcase teams - and most of the 16u teams are loaded with 14 eligible players. We played in the Stingrays (and all ASA Q's) 2 summers ago as a 16u team and only had 3 players that were 16's. The rest were 1st and 2nd year 14's. Times are a changin........

 

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That is exactly what we see down here. At D9 almost all teams all had mixed age rosters. In fact I think very few were year specific. And as I stated earlier - when I go to talk to the coaches that are watching they ALWAYS want to know about the young ones. If they can play and hold their own they really get a head start.

gobug - while 16u might not be totally "B" down here the really strong first year 16u players are playing on the showcase teams - and most of the 16u teams are loaded with 14 eligible players. We played in the Stingrays (and all ASA Q's) 2 summers ago as a 16u team and only had 3 players that were 16's. The rest were 1st and 2nd year 14's. Times are a changin........

Exactly. DD played on a mixed 14U team last season. Every second year eligible 14U player on that team that is in high school this year is on an 18U showcase team.. We kept DD down at 14U because she just turned 14 (Yesterday) and is still in 8th grade. She actually was asked to play at a showcase this fall and had no problem holding her own.

The decision IMO depends on what the player wants out of softball and what the player can mentally handle.

 

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Socially too!!

Exactly. DD played on a mixed 14U team last season. Every second year eligible 14U player on that team that is in high school this year is on an 18U showcase team.. We kept DD down at 14U because she just turned 14 (Yesterday) and is still in 8th grade. She actually was asked to play at a showcase this fall and had no problem holding her own.

The decision IMO depends on what the player wants out of softball and what the player can mentally handle.

 

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Coach Dennis seems to think that the evil parents are forcing little Sally to play up. It just the opposite coach. Why would a parent commit to spending so much additional cash for them to have some bragging rights.

Not sure where you got that I think parents are evil?

If you read my response to the original posters question on 14U age eligible (13/14 year olds basically 8th graders) playing 16/18U or Gold I stated that I have found that most teams are pretty much made up like our 18U team. A mix of 13,14,15 grad years and ages of 15 to 18..

I also stated in my original post that I do not consider a 15 year old playing up if they are at 18U ...
I also posted that yes, there are some 14 eligible players that can play up with no issues....I did have a player that was 13 on our 16U team however; she also graduated in 2012 at 16. She played 3 years at 16U and one year of 18U and is now playing at Ursuline College.

Someone posted that more 18U/18U Gold teams had 14U eligible players on them.

After looking at the rosters (of the teams that have them posted) for the ASA 2012 18U Gold Nationals top 20 and the rosters of some of the teams we faced this fall and last summer I found one 14U eligible player and she was on a roster of 16 yikes!.....

I think Coachjwb pretty much summed it up in his post...

 

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I know there are some very talented girls playing up on some of the best teams in the state, but Dennis is right too that there are some girls playing up on some pretty mediocre teams, ...

The point is that a lot of parents and players have no clue about how to achieve their goals. I believe that a lot of us, as travel coaches and/or parents who have been through the process already, have a responsibility to help them understand the process and their choices, even if that means that they have to move on from the teams we coach. This discussion about playing up is informational to me, and has made me think about how things have evolved and where they are probably going, and how I ought to be advising some of the girls I coach in the future.

Great post! Too many people rush to 18U thinking it will improve their chances of being recruited when they would have been better off playing in a lower age group. There are far more early verbals (frosh/soph) at 14-16u than at 18u. Players should get on the best team for them where they will be an impact player.

We have 2 uncommitted sophomores on our 16U team that played 18U last year. One was a reserve on a top team (9th PGF) and the other was a starter on a very weak 18U team. They both drew more interest this Fall than last year and are much happier too.

There is a large spectrum of teams at every age group and a lot of overlap in ability (i.e. top younger teams can beat 90+% of the teams in the next age group and many of the teams 2 groups up). Those coaches put together a schedule that keeps them challenged and provides a lot of exposure.

The established 18G coaches in good organizations help their younger players get recruited in many ways:
- They prepare younger players and get familiar with them by running some practices and helping coach some games.
- They direct college coaches to check out players on younger teams that fit their need(s).
- They bring up younger players to fill-in on their team - especially at the NJ Summer showcase.
- They attend showcase games for younger teams and talk to colleges.

 

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Ive always thought playing up was a kid playing in an age group above her age. Good especially for pitchers. They dont get better striking out 15 every game in their own age group. DD always played two years up.

 

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......in my opinion any player good enough to be playing on a true Showcase level team is not playing up!! She is playing where she belongs.