Why have the rule?

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I have seen more "Crow Hopping" this season than ever. Very rarely is a call made and when the call is made, its only made once. The pitcher in question makes no changes to their delivery.

The Crow Hop creates a definite advantage for the pitcher. I don't understand why its not called more often.

 

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Are you sure you haven't seen more leapers than crow hoppers? I've seen very few who actually crow hop.

While I'll agree crow hopping will give the pitcher a slight advantage, there is virtually no advantage other than slightly more speed to a leaper.

 

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I don't understand why its not called more often.

- Many times, when someone complains about a "crowhop" it isn't a crowhop at all. Sometimes it's a leap, which is something entirely different. Sometimes it's neither, but that doesn't stop the complaints.

- Sometimes it's because the umpire is inexperienced or unsure of the pitching rules.

- When it is called, there is usually controversy involved ("She's been pitching like that all year and nobody's ever called it!"). Some umpires choose not to go down that road just to avoid the arguments. But, then again, if she is doing something illegal and you don't call it, you might have an argument anyway...

I really can't even remember the last time I saw a pitcher do an actual, honest-to-goodness, true crowhop. I've seen a few leaps, but even that violation seems to be way down in recent seasons. Maybe some umpires are calling it somewhere (I have called a few), maybe pitching coaches are finally working to rid pitchers of this move, maybe all the emphasis in the college game on illegal pitches is trickling down to the lower ranks. I don't know. But, on the whole, I see a lot more pitchers making a real, concentrated effort to drag the pivot foot and not let it get airbourne

 

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Believe you me.. Edge knows the difference between the two.

Why it is not called.. inexperienced umpires and everything Bretman said above

 

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ThanksQuakerman, I do know the differnce and the reason I'm questioning the rule is because its never called and I just get myself in trouble when I question it! LOL!;&

 

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ThanksQuakerman, I do know the differnce and the reason I'm questioning the rule is because its never called and I just get myself in trouble when I question it! LOL!;&

You getting on umpires again ;& It's a combo of inexperienced umpires or ones who are afraid to call it and take the heat for doing so.

Cause you know ... if the team loses.. you as an umpire took their pitcher out of the game by calling it :lmao: I always loved to hear that from coaches.

I stay quiet.. really I do... ... but I always want to tell that coach to get their pitcher to some proper training and maybe that person can get her to throw legally again.

 

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Funny thing Edge..... these college coaches see that crow hop and they are done with many pitchers as at the 16u and up age.. hard to reteach some girls sometimes.

 

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IMHO, the crow hop gives no advantage to the pitcher as long as the land foot stays within the pitching circle and in the pitching lane.

 

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Definitions

CROW HOP- same as a replant. pivot foot leaves ground, is replanted and pitcher pushes off this foot for power. ADVANTAGE (even if she remains in the circle, she is closer than where she normally would have ended up with a legal pitch. Some good examples are seen with Men's Fastpitch where this is routine.
LEAPING- pivot foot becomes air-born, but lands during pitching motion essentially with the toe-down position. NO ADVANTAGE
STEPPING- Seen mainly with beginners. Pitcher rocks and steps pivot forward off the rubber before initiating motion. JUST BAD INSTRUCTION

Please feel free to add or correct these definitions, but this is how I interpret illegal pitches.

 

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Definitions

CROW HOP- same as a replant. pivot foot leaves ground, is replanted and pitcher pushes off this foot for power. ADVANTAGE (even if she remains in the circle, she is closer than where she normally would have ended up with a legal pitch. Some good examples are seen with Men's Fastpitch where this is routine.
LEAPING- pivot foot becomes air-born, but lands during pitching motion essentially with the toe-down position. NO ADVANTAGE
STEPPING- Seen mainly with beginners. Pitcher rocks and steps pivot forward off the rubber before initiating motion. JUST BAD INSTRUCTION

Please feel free to add or correct these definitions, but this is how I interpret illegal pitches.

Crow hop- It isn't necessary for the pivot foot to leave the ground to have a crow hop. It could be slid forward in front of the pitcher's plate, never leaving the ground, then the pitcher could push off from that point.

If the pivot foot has left the ground....where might the stride foot be at that moment? If it's already landed, then the pivot foot cab be off the ground. If it's in the air, then you have both feet in the air at the same time, which is a leap.

Also, I'd be careful about defining any of these by if the pitcher landed inside the circle or not. The circle has zero bearing on any of the pitching rules. The only rule the circle applies to is the look back rule.

 

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Thanks Bretman for the clarification on the crow hop/replant definition!

 

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I don't understand people who think that the pitcher gains no advantage from a Crow hop or a Leap. When they're forced to pitch legally they often lose 3-5 mph off of their pitch.

 

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Advantage?
Let's assume a pitching distance of 43'. Regardless if she leaps or drags, if a pitcher replants her pivot foot 3' in front of the pitcher's plate and pushes off again before delivering the ball, she has effectively pitched from 40'. So, the "advantage" question is pretty simple: Which distance is more advantageous for the pitcher; 40' or 43'?

Getting it called?
Identifying a replant is actually fairly simple when viewed from the side, such as from first base or third base. However, from a head-on point of view, it's nearly impossible. Remember that the illegal activity is the actual replant, NOT the symptoms. However, the symptoms in this case are very telling if you have studied fastpitch pitching mechanics. Nearly every non-replanting pitcher has a smooth continuous flow in her forward motion. However, a replanting pitcher will nearly always have a "hitch", or momentary stop in her forward motion. This "hitch" is generally where the pivot foot has completely stopped it's forward motion due to being "replanted". Another symptom is the hole created by this repetitive replanting.

So why isn't replanting called on a regular, consistent basis? I simply don't believe that these field umpires cannot detect the infraction. IMO, replanting is so epidemic in Ohio HS and travel ball that calling it on a consistent basis would be like calling "true" strikes in a 10u rec. game. It's an unspoken game-flow thing. Umpires must take liberties to keep the flow of the game moving, or else games would be seven hour ordeals!

Solution?
So, why do all these kids replant? I don't believe for a minute that they are trying to cheat. They just honestly believe they are not doing anything mechanically wrong, and they have been doing it so long that it feels natural. Numerous illegal pitches in games are a symptom of an underlying mechanics problem that probably started early in the kid's pitching education. A common problem in young kids learning to pitch is the tendency to lean forward and guide the ball. In trying to teach them to stay balanced - neither forward nor back - an instructor might stress to "keep your weight back". Combined with other mechanics and timing flaws, this can result in putting too much weight on the back side pivot foot, causing it to stop and replant. An instructor who continues to ignore obvious flaws, and the kid who refuses to work hard to correct them are the ones at fault - NOT the umpire who is simply doing what they are trained to do. The solution is for parents of pitchers to extensively educate themselves about what legal pitching mechanics look like, and insist that any instructor teaching their daughter adhere to these principles.

It is insanity to blame umpires for calling replants! When illegal pitches are called, it's NOT the umpire's fault. This "fault" started years before with an unqualified pitching instructor and ignorance of the rules. My suggestion is to parents: Don't embarrass your daughter by getting upset at an umpire for recognizing your daughter's illegal pitches. Take a proactive approach and MAKE SURE she is pitching legally before hitting the field. She will thank you for it!

 

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Wow!! For a couple of seconds I was shocked to see posts from a certain well-disliked member who apparently fell off the face of the earth. I didn't realize the posts were from last July.

Anyway, one thing I always have had issues with is why some coaches will allow a pitcher to pitch illegally. I have seen plenty of clearly illegal leaps or replants that seem to go unnoticed. It seems that some have the opinion that if Blue doesn't call it let her continue to pitch illegally. I've always wondered why not teach your pitchers how to pitch properly when they start pitching so you don't have to re-teach when they get older and their illegal pitching starts to get called more often.

 

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Travel to western Pa. tournys, they will call it. They love to call it mostly when there is a runner on third. Lol

 

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The REAL PROBLEM here is the total lack of consistency in enforcement. I have learned the hard way to leave it alone when an opposing pitcher is crow hopping or leaping (and I do know the difference). It always backfires for the coach who makes this an issue with the umpire - right or wrong. The last time I pointed out a crow hopper to an umpire, my next hitter got plunked and the umpire actually looked at me and said "you want this called like a college game - you got it". WOW lesson learned.

Not saying what Sammy is saying is wrong because it's not - IF umpires would enforce the rules consistently - but they DO NOT. My solution is to legalize everything. Crop hops, leaps, hell even forget the 24" pitching lane - just make it all legal.

 

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I was told by an umpire just the other day that the NCAA decided to back off the illegal pitches this year. I don't know how it was back here in the Midwest, but out in the West and Northwest there were a lot of illegal pitches called the last two years. The NCAA emphasized it after the embarrassing displays of illegal pitches on ESPN never being called around 2007 or 2008. Now that they have apparently backed off, we're back to leaping with no consequences.

 

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Honestly, I don't think there is much advantage gained by women pitchers by leaping (no toe drag). Many pitchers just barely drag the toe enough to be legal, which isn't much of an impedance to velocity. However, there is a tremendous advantage gained by replanting - which is effectively reducing the pitching distance by however far the pitcher can jump with the first push-off.

That said, my vote goes to just eliminate the leaping penalty altogether and focus more effort into calling obvious replanting.

Joe - my DD's last college season was 2 years ago. There were more illegal pitches called that season than I have ever seen in any level of play. Funny thing, it really didn't slow the game much at all, but it did make for some frustrated coaches. Most of the calls were for replanting, which was not even close to as blatant as the jumping I described earlier. The college pitchers were ever so slightly sliding their pivot toe in front of the pitcher's plate before starting their stride. They gained maybe a couple inches advantage? Illegal nonetheless...

 

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Too funny - as our 16/18u season is getting ready to start down here I asked our State UIC (very,very good guy) a few questions about rules focus from ASA Umpires this season. One question had to do with the change in the NCAA replant rule and the other was the delayed dead ball on the "leave early from the base" rule. I was told that neither of these have filtered down to the ASA or HS level yet.

Joe below is the definintion I was given and how the Fla umpires are calling NCAA games...

" There was an illegal pitch video posted on the FHSAA web site regarding the leap, crow hop and the replant. All those techniques are considered illegal. The major issue is the newer push away techniques and whether a pitcher, after her initial push off, does her push foot bear weight again and essentially give the pitcher another push point a foot or two closer to the plate (replant). I would strongly encourage review of the video. The confusion has become even greater as the NCAA has approved the technique as legal as long as the hands have separated and the windmill of the arm is continuous and does not have a hitch or pause to it. There has been point of emphasis to the illegal pitch for the last few years in the NCAA and NFHS in an attempt to clean up the illegal pitching that had become more prevalent in the past several years. In the NCAA it became a real focus of attention and heated discussion because of the different philosophies of coaches, pitching instructors, umpires and administrators. It takes several years for points of emphasis to become a part of the game and it takes several years to get everyone on the same page when something changes also. High school officials are waiting to see if NFHS will come out and give a directive or clarification on their position. Until that happens, the video is what we are enforcing.
The leaving early on the pitch rule remains the same as it has always been for NFHS and ASA. Dead ball, runner is out, no pitch.

The NCAA, again, had confused things with a rule change to make it a delayed dead ball and allow play to continue with the defensive coach getting the option of the play or the traditional penalty once all playing action has ceased. This allows the defense to possibly get more than one out on a play and some other possibilities that we won't list because there are a lot. "

There defininately is a difference in all three of these illegal pitches. I can honestly tell you that I am happy with how Florida ASA Umpires call these. They are very consistent, and at the younger ages they tend to help the coaches see the differences. Take a look at these videos and let me know what you think... http://www.fhsaa.org/news/2012/0213 Personally I like the NCAA version of the delayed call for leaving early. Many options for defenses.

 

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I will look at the videos. We have have had three calls for leaving early this season and twice the umpire called it immediately and forgot to do a delayed dead ball.

Sammy, you may be right that there is no advantage in leaping. I'm fine with legalizing it, but if it's illegal, we need to know because it changes the mechanics for some pitchers. If we don't need to work on correcting it, then no point in wasting time doing so.