Discussion in 'General Softball Discussions' started by Daddy Gurl, Jul 22, 2019.
What’s the benefit of having so many teams under 1 organization name?
There are a lot of factors that play into the benefits of multi team organizations.
Here is some for the organization: a talent pipeline, purchasing power and source of organization income training facilities, spirit wear etc..
There is also the representation at events from the younger ages to older ages. When all teams do well it helps with future events having a connection with TDs that a single team struggles to get. It also helps with attracting new talent to the teams/organization.
For the family or player they can stay on age specific teams and grow. In most cases, larger organizations have more established coaching and can provide recruiting advice and connections.
The down side is when organizations get too big and start to field more than 2 teams in each age range.. The organization can lose consistency within the organizations, struggle keeping coaches and players. and leave players/parents disappointed when they think they are playing on team A but end up on team B or C...
Another change is lot of organizations seem to be going away from the birth year specific teams because there is not a lot of odd year age tournaments and second you can build a stronger team with the best talent at a combined even age year. 10U-12U-14U-16U-18U.
The head of the Org. makes more money that way.
Although I am personally unaware of the larger or any local organizations paying anyone for their services, Long Baller is correct in his above statement. I'm not sure if it was meant to be humorous but it does ring truth about organizations I am aware of in other states.
Some of the organizations head administrator or chairpersons have actually made this a career. I am aware of an organization in Ga. that a guy gave up a lucrative career in finance and spent almost 20 years doing nothing but run the organization and coached their elite 18u now known as their Premier team while maintaining a home in one of the wealthiest suburbs of Atlanta. I'm not sure how many teams were within the organization but they ranged from 8u to 18u at the time I knew him. The cost for 8u would make your eyes roll let alone the 12u - 18u that traveled extensively.
Trust me, the players were not all "Elite" level players but the money was never a question and the more there was the more involvement came along with it. In his defense, he had a host of players go on to be Bulldogs which in Ga. carries a lot of clout.
Take a look at some of these numbers...
When I see Organization Names from other States trying to break in the Ohio market with their brand and you look behind the numbers... franchise fee per player...mandatory private instruction etc.
Yep....at the end of the day, it's all business. Some are scaled larger than others. People assume that all these orgs. are non profit, but that isn't the case. I know the head of my DD's Ohio based org. takes a cut from each player's fees.
Reading this post and this sentence struck me hard! We have an 03 daughter that for 2 years now have struggled in getting her with a true 03 team. If there is any aspiration of playing college ball, we have found it's highly important to start in the younger age of 12u or at max 14u to get on a team she can grow and move with. We missed the boat on this and as a parent I'm beside myself in trying to find that right 'forever home' not just a team that she can be an asset to, as well as the team and coaches an asset to her growth and desire to excel to the next level. It amazes me the changes in just 4 years since we started. It's heartbreaking, almost.
While I have seen a few teams out there with an even mix, this still seems to be the exception and not the rule from my observations. Most teams I see are still predominantly birth year based, with maybe a couple of "off year" (usually younger) kids thrown in. It really doesn't make any sense if you have a team where half of the kids need to move up the next year, and the other half can (and want to) stay down. Maybe the mixed age teams is a thing with orgs. that don't do much for college recruiting? Also, I have never seen an odd year age specific tournament. If you're playing at 16U, your '02 team and '03 team play in the same tourney.
When we played there was more options for odd year/age specific teams and they were "true" age specific teams. Generally teams now need 2 to 4 players to field a team that may be older or, younger than the core of the team.
In the early 2000s USSSA was big with odd year events and World Series however most of the USSSA parks around SW Ohio are gone. Most TDs no longer even bother with separating odd year teams and just lump them all together 10-12-14-16-18. Occasionally; you will see B level event for the odd year teams or weaker even year teams but these too are rare. That is why there really is not many true birth year specific teams around.
Now a days you find around SW Ohio, Indiana and KY most organizations have dropped or "greatly reduced" the number of odd year teams and stay to trying to field competitive 10-12-14-16-18 teams.
Stingrays, Lasers, and a hand full of other larger organizations around the state still try to field age specific teams but honestly I think the Lasers are at like 20 teams and the Stingrays 10 or more so I doubt they have all true age year specif teams.
Having that many teams makes it tough to field competitive teams at each age group while keeping the same birth years and keep coaching but, like in another thread it does bring in the $ for the organization.
Ohio Outlaws is an organization that labels the teams all even and they too have quite a bit of teams at each age range some with a birth year designation.
In the holy grail of Ohio Softball tournaments Stingrays it looks like they had a very good showing winning 4 of 7 divisions. When looking at the Outlaw website most teams had 2/3 grad years some teams had 4 grad years 2020-2023.
That is a wide range of ages and the area they come from is unbelievable: MI,OH,PA, IN,KY,WV that is amazing talent draw. When we played out west back in 2009/2010 that is how a lot of the 16/18U teams were assembled.
As far as collage recruiting, that starts with players talent and being on teams with coaches that can guide players/parents more so, than a lady just being on a team with her own age group/birth year.
If you look at the tryout section just about every team (birth year or non birth year) is looking for talent. If you limit your looks to a specific birth year you make the search much harder so, I would guess the 9U 11U 13U 15U teams looking will take the best player available regardless of birth year.
Travel Softball is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry. Some have found ways to make a living running an organization. Kudos to them. Most doing so, I feel are in it for the right reasons. At least here in Ohio. Out west, not so sure. I feel we have some very solid organizations and reputable names but then you have Texas teams and Cali teams showing up out of the blue and Once you start stretching that name nationwide and charging fees to players each month just to represent and advertise for your pockets then it’s crossing the line but it is what it is. Some parents want to pay for that name and the “Status”. Keeping up with the Jones’ as they say.
When organizations from Cali and Texas show up in Ohio makes me wonder. Coaches not good enough for one of our top organizations here? Burn some bridges? Ego trip? That name does nothing here in my opinion. Just another product that help water-down the talent.
If each sanctioning body would put a limit on how many teams can register from the state that would help clean up an organization popping up over night or an organization having 6 team in one age division but that will never happen because it comes down to Money. And we all know Money makes the world go round.
I wasn't around in 2000, so I can't speak for what was going on back then. No doubt in my mind that the sport has changed, evolved, progressed, (or whatever term you want to use) very much since then. Like any business model, you have to keep up with the times and provide what the customer wants, or you will wither on the vine.
My experiences are what I have noticed at the higher level, showcase type of events and teams. These orgs. do have odd year teams, but they still call them 14U, 16U, vs 13U, 15U, etc. At that level, there is no disadvantage in a true 15U team playing against true 16Us. Heck, the good ones are playing in 18U tournaments and winning. Also worth noting is that colleges recruit based on graduation year, so that makes a difference in some cases.
I personally know of one example that that aides your point of mixed age teams. We have a family friend who's DD plays with a fairly large org. (maybe B level?) in Northeastern Ohio. They had three 14U teams, and each team was mixed ages. There were a couple 12U eligible kids playing at 14U, and even some 14U eligible kids playing at 16U. To me, that seemed like a mess. However, that particular org. had no interest (at that time, I don't know about now) in college recruiting. Pretty sure that they never left the state, and Berliner Park was probably the furthest they went. Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that as I am all for just getting the girls on the field to do what they love to do. Point is, if this org. decided to move towards a recruiting goal, they would have to break those teams up and structure more towards graduation year.
I honestly don't see anything wrong with say, the Batbusters or Firecrackers for example, coming to Ohio. It gives the kids here more options, and I feel options are a good thing. There is a point about watering down the name though. I was talking to a college coach about that very subject, and their reply was something like "If I have to keep asking kids where their Firecracker's team is from, then I start to lose interest". Take that for what it's worth, but at least people have heard of the that team vs. "Ohio Xtreme Commotion '04 Purple Platinum Premier-Smith".
I agree with most of this. My only issue with travel ball today is its way to watered down. New teams pop up everyday. Organizations from out West coming here doesn’t help the situation. Heck we all got to see first hand what happened last fall when an organization from Cali tried to start up an 05 team here. It folded within 2 months. Some people worry more about status and keeping up with the Jones’ rather than building what we already have here in this wonderful state. It’s just a name. Why give our money to someone out west that isn’t here to oversee and make sure the organization is ran like it is out there. If an ohio organization tried to charge a team fee then a monthly fee to their players every month for our kids to wear the logo the organization would get bashed and probably have to close up shop.
Sorry I got way off topic on this rant. But this is a great conversation and I hope it continues.
Well i do want to put something to rest my dd plays for a firecrackers team and none of this is true our fees are 1500 includes everything !
2 fall jerseys 2 summer jerseys pants socks bags helmets tournaments fall and winter and summer no hidden fees nothing no individual kid monthly payment
my dd was on multiple top organizations in ohio and the fees are in par with everyone else but here is what they get also
we get offers from other firecrackers teams all around the country if they need players they email us and we can send players all over the country for no extra fees
so our players even if we dont go to Surf city or Colorado as a team can still have that opportunity as a player ...
and i see your from bo jackson how many times is BO JACKSON actually at practice or a game just saying maybe he is there i dont know so i would just make assumptions
and didnt bo jackson elite start in 2016 ????? and isnt there multiple bo jackson facilitys in other states... sorry to poor it on passion i dont know anything about
bo jackson elite softball just assuming
The topic of Ohio softball being watered down comes up quite often on here, and it is interesting to read people's thoughts on the matter. When you see a whole page of posts in the tryout section posting "Looking for 3-4 more to fill out our talented roster", then yes I agree that is a problem. There is also the opinion that there are too many teams, and because of this the talented players are spread thin over teams that aren't as good as they should be. I don't subscribe to that for quite a few reasons, which I wrote about in a thread on here awhile back so I won't rehash it at this point.
Aren't there a couple of younger aged Beverly Bandits teams in Ohio now? I know they aren't from Cali, but that is an org from farther west that is breaking into Ohio talent. Speaking of which, I personally know Ohio girls that play for Bandits teams from Illinois, Michigan Finesse, Georgia Impact and Birmingham Bolts teams. So in that regard, Ohio is watering itself down by it's talent leaving for big name Orgs out of state.
Also, there is at least one good sized Ohio org that had been leasing it's name to smaller teams for name recognition. So what the Cali team tried here is happening here, just in a slightly different way.
As for the monthly fee on some of these out of state orgs coming in I am going off of what I have been told.
Yes Bo Jackson Org is young for the softball side but they are here in Ohio with a beautiful facility and a great staff full of knowledge. And yes Mr. Jackson has been to the facility a few times but not often. They are HUGE in the baseball scene and see the great talent here in Ohio to jump in the Softball world.
I am not saying these out of state orgs coming are bad organizations at all. I am saying we have great organizations here in Ohio and some have great names and well known at the national level and some are right close to being able to compete at the national level. My thing is why keep opening up more when you could build what’s already here in our state? I am all for more options for the girls because at the end of the day that’s what it’s about, The girls and seeing them succeed.
Example if I am coaching a team Texas Midwest Glory or whatever it’s called why would I want to represent that name when we are actually an Ohio team?
And again sorry if I ruffled feathers on the monthly fee to carry the logo. That’s what I have been told by parents who tried out for the team.
Again this is such a great topic! I am in no way trying to bash or put any team or organization out there down. Softball popularity has skyrocketed over the years and has become a $15 BILLION industry! People see a HUGE opportunity to make money and that’s not what it’s about. It’s about the girls.
I can think of some reasons. The name brings the talent. Having the talent brings the record. Those, along with most importantly, the organizational support, will open doors for the players that Ohio orgs can't provide.
From the parent/player view, lets just assume that for the sake of argument my DD is talented enough to play in the Pac 12. She wants to play for the Cal Bears because dad graduated from there. If she is on a successful Firecracker's team, and has the recruiting support from the head of the org, that would be her best path to get there. That school won't look at a kid wearing a no name Ohio uniform. That's why the Ohio kids with big college aspirations wear uniforms from out of state Org's.
So you are saying, and correct me if I am wrong here.. Hawks, Outlaws, & Lasers just to name a few are NO NAME Ohio Organizations? Again just trying to figure this out. Not wanting to argue but get more educated on this subject.
In no particular order I think those are probably the top 3 exposure organizations in Ohio right now. Based out of Ohio.
Separate names with a comma.