Rain Policy Needed

Rain Policy Needed
TD?s please correct me if I am wrong.

NSA, ASA, and sanctioning bodies we need your help. A tournament rain policy needs to be implemented and enforced. In a 4 division tournament with 12 teams per division a tournament director will save about $3500 in umpire fees to cancel Sunday ball (11 games x 4 div x $40/ump x 2 umps=$3520).

We are all for TD's making some profit for their cause and we greatly appreciate their hard work, but canceling tournaments with out refunds is stealing. Too many teams/families have worked too hard and traveled too far to have their tournaments canceled with out every effort to keep them going. Why should a TD's stop this profitable trend. A few bad posts on OFC is not incentive to stop.

A set refund policy should be mandatory. How about 90% if no games played, 70% if one game, 50% if 2 games, 25% if 3 games and 0% if 4 or more games are played. Please enforce game minimums of at least 75 minutes too. Come on NSA, ASA, ... please do something to help our sport.

It should be noted that some TD?s do their best to beat the rain, but a few too many seem to be too eager to call it a day this season.

Back in the spring when the Valley Extreme tournament was cancelled without any team playing a game, I said something similar to what you saying about "stealing". I agree, there needs to be a policy. I want the organizations to make their money also, but when no games are played and the organization keeps a hefty portion of the entry fee because ASA or NSA allows for that.... it is stealing.

I think now more people are bothered by it because the rainouts have been a pretty consistent thing this summer.

Will the policy change across the board? I do not think so. Maybe recognize the tournaments that worked to get the games in or returned more than a fair share of the entry fee and show your appreciation by going again next year. I know when the rain situation looked bad a GAPSS, the tournament director immediately said if a team only played two games, they would look at refunding money. That is a tournament that has the players and families in mind and wants everyone to return. (No gate fees or parking fees).

i hate to play Devil's Advocate, but since i stayed up last night playing 2K baseball on x-box (i threw a shutout--and speaking of games, why isn't there a Wii fastpitch game? imagine a nation of girls perfecting their swings or working on their pitches using a video game?) and my coffee hasn't kicked in, i'll be one

there is no way to enforce a rule if it went into affect (or effect?)...anyways, will there be some old man walking around in an ASA vest during rain delays, making sure teams are offered refunds, or calling city crews to work the fields or face the wrath of a sanctioning body rebuke? will they fine a TD? NO...if they havent done it in Tealtown, it won't happen in central ohio

anyways, the best way is to vote with your pocket-book and avoid those tourneys in the future AND get other teams not to go as well...maybe if the teams stop going to them, they'll change....

someone said americans just shut-up and take it (hey we voted for bush, so he must be right!), but it is that way because people allow themselves to be treated that way....write letters, call....now maybe you might wait until the season is over (to save face with your coach/org perhaps) or maybe you do this anonymously....either way, vote with your pocket book!

but if your talking from a parent perspective, you are bound by the coaches schedule decisions....from a coaching perspective, they have to weigh the benefits of playing, maybe in a different sanctioning body (say, tournament location vs traveling or quality vs quantity) or tourney

i like these posts, but these decisions are harder to make if your the one having to make it....as for gate fees and parking fees, that's the nature of the beast

This is why I like NAFA and their policy of "pay as you go". The tournament director charges $125.00 per team and the teams pay the umpires on the field.

Now, out of that 125 per team, TD's pay sanctioning fees back to national, regional and state. Prizes are in there as well as diamond dry at 12.00 a bag to put on a field.

But, if it rains, since you have been paying umpires on the field, and a TD uses diamond dry to get the fields ready to play and it rains again on you... then a TD can make a decision to declare a winner from the round robin play and still give out the prizes OR get the diamonds up and running once again and hope for better weather.

Some teams have to understand, which truthfully they don't, that just because it quit raining just this minute..... why am I expected to try and put $600 dollars of diamond dry down when I know in two hours a line of thunderstorms are going to hit again and that amount of diamond dry would be better used after the second storm, especially if the weather service says the rain is going to clear out after that second line of thunderstorms. These are tough decisions a TD has to make and if he isn't informed with ANY weather service... then he is a fool.

don't be confused by a coach or parent saying things like $3500 in umpire fees the tourney makes.... No games means no concession sales. we invested $3000 in food and had half of it left over. we spent $1400 on t-shirts and had half of them left over. $800 in diamond dry. Every game that got delayed part way thru the game - we pay the umpires twice. Our scheduler fees, insurance fees, porta john fees, ice cooler fees, and diamond use fees are still the same.... if it rains or not. The Classics ASAQ cleared about $1500, and divide that by 40 parents and coaches working 10-60 hours each plus all the preplanning time.... (and the beer after its all over) it works out to about 75 cents per hour. If it didn't rain we might have cleared $5000, maybe.

We donated $1500 to Special Olympics. Donated the extra shirts to Faith Mission. The meat we'll save for our fall tourney. The gatorade and water we divided up between our teams. The extra pop, candy, gatorade and water in the stand already and chips we donated to the High School.

Its a gamble hosting a tourney. the groups that are willing to take it and do a quality job deserve everything they can make.

The questions to ask are... is it city fields or team hosted? how many have they run in the past? what is their history of running tournaments? - the teams who win rarely complain...

David - Well said - maybe we just need to "walk a mile" in the TD's shoes before saying anything - I can't even imagine all the work, headaches, etc you must go through to host a tournament. Yes, there are quality tournaments and then there are the not so quality tournaments - IMO coaches need to weigh all the tournament facts before entering. If you want to play full games, go to those tournaments, if you don't want drop dead time limits, don't enter those tournaments, and if you want a rain policy you can live with, ask ahead of time for a written policy. An organized TD will have one.

TDs will not have a written rain policy. There are way too many variables to try to put something in writing. Where are you at in the overall schedule of events, how many games are in progess, how much time is left in the "games in progress", etc.


What I think everyone is looking for is a refund policy if you do not get your "Game Guarantee". They can and should have that in writing.

I think this is an interesting topic since I am refunding for games not played at Beavercreek this past weekend. ?I think we were the place that soaked up all the rain that was heading to the Stingray event in Columbus. ?David Beckham was right on in all his comments about the gambles a TD takes. ?It also takes up a lot of time starting around Thanksgiving answering emails, etc about the events, so there is ?tremendous amount of time invested. I'm retired, so it isn't much of ?a burden on me, but for other TDs and organization that means time that could be spent doing other things. And for the large events like GAPSS or Stingrays, that means endless committe meetings, coordination, and keeping everyone on the same page. And, then if it rains, there is a seeminlgly endless barrage of questions regarding game times, etc. ?

I like the idea that NAFA has about paying a basic fee up front amount and then paying the umpires on the spot before each game and I may go with that next year. As I told Quakerman, I intend to stay at no more than 24 teams for any event.

I just hope for all the events left this year, that they are all rain-free.

Bob

I foresee a lot of problems with the pay as you go. Just about all of the teams are on the up and up. But, there is always 10 % that are not. What about bad checks? Will they take credit cards? Will it be cash only. Will umpires do anything other than cash? Will the payment be before or after the game? If after the game, I'm sure there will be some problems there if a coach is not happy with the umpiring job.

I'm with ya tour Director about the rest of the tournaments being rain-free.

It seems that this season, the teams entering these tournaments are gambling. While I have been to some tournaments that put every effort into trying to get the games in, there are far more that have not. We have played in 1 ASA tournament this season and it cost us $380 for 1 game!!! I understand that TD's have money & time invested long before any fees are received but softball tournaments are essentially a business. You would not stand for a company to charge you for 4 items and then only give you 1 or 2 halves ( if you get my comparison). Why do TD's expect anything less from their "customers". There are some great tournaments and hard working TD's out there that are the exception but they are overshadowed by the bad ones who could care less once the rain comes. ? ?

How about a one time investment and one word answer to help solve this for cities that host! TARPS!!

This is GAPSS Rain-out Policy. Every team that signs up for the tournament, agrees to this policy - its in the rules, on the website and handed out in the coaches pack.

Rain-out Policy: If no games are able to be played, a partial refund may be provided to each team. Full refunds are not possible due to the expenses of the tournament which must be paid prior to the first game played. No refunds will be given if each team has played at least one game. If extensive rain causes a delay that makes it impossible to complete the double elimination format, the tournament may be changed to single elimination. Likewise, if weather causes the tournament to be canceled after games have been played, a point system will be used to determine the winners. The number of games completed by all teams will determine the number of games used for the point system (i.e. if every team has completed 2 games, but half have completed 3 games, only the first 2 games will be used for points). Points will be awarded as follows: Five points for each run scored and one point for each hit.

I agree with everything that David and Wvanalmsick have said. Losing a day of play may save money on umpire fees but at least in our case it cost us a day and half in concession sales as well as the expense of having to repurchase 350-400 bags of diamond dry.

With that all being said this was the message I put on the website (after discussing it with the rest of the board) after losing a Friday's games:

To address the inevitable question about the possibility of refunds, the
GAPSS Board plans to offer some form of refund for teams that only play
two games. Although this is outside of our tournament policy, we believe
that it is only fair. The amount of the refund will be determined once
our final expense (and savings due to rain) are determined and the GAPSS
Board has a chance to review.

We will not know the actual amount of the refund until the middle of August however I can tell you it will likely be in the $50 range based on my initial assessment of our revenue vs. expenses. I am sure this will be less than what some believe is right - to those I would say read our rain policy, we think it is very generous.

To the one word answer - TARPS, based on a quick internet search it looks like they would run about $2000 per field. With 13 fields at GAPSS purchasing $26K worth of tarps would require a onetime tournament fee of approximately $800/team (assuming we could get 84 teams to pay it). In addition, to what/where to store, maintain, etc... Its a good idea but probably not very practical.

Let's face it, rain sucks. We can't purchase, manage, or plan our way out of it. Just communicate, get lots of volunteers (where allowed) and pray for sunshine.

We're not confused. We know tourneys are fundraisers for the host organization and involve significant expenses. They are not for the rest of the teams that are paying to play. And as we all know, an out of town tourney (lodging, food, gas, beer, not necessarily in that order) is way more expensive than the entry fee. The GAPSS type of policy (or practice) will guarantee people coming back but it seems they are the exception not the rule. Saw lots of positive comments about GAPSS compared to the NSA States. I'm not against the charities David is supporting but I don't think its fair to give no refund and then give to charities when more can be done to play games.

In the end of the day, we?re there because we want to play and not get a refund. I think, a standard refund policy would be a good incentive mechanism to force the less than stellar TDs to do everything possible to play games rather than send everyone home and pocket the cash or donate to charities. We were at an NSA tourney recently when games were rained out on Saturday afternoon. Then the Sunday games were cancelled at 8am when supposedly the city said they thought the fields could be playable by 1pm. You can play a lot of games from 1pm on. No word on refunds yet, has to go to the ?board????even if they refund, we would have rather played more games. I had two dd's as #1 seeds.

The point the original poster made seemed directed at some TDs not all. Seems it would take less effort to put some standard rules in place that will be good incentive to get all TD?s to play games rather than launch boycott campaigns against a few bad ones.

You know, we could just have our kids all play S.O.C.C.E.R. They play in the rain. :-? : :-X >

I spell that SOCR cuz its a 4 letter word. ;D

The rain policy needs to be that it can only rain Monday-Thursday morning during the months of May, June and July. If this policy proves difficult to enforce, then I will go with tarps for tournament infields.

Hitman, were you at our tournament? we did everything possible to play as many a games as possible.

No HS is going to pay for tarps for diamonds #2, #3 and #4. Thats a dream we have to realize is a dream and not a solution. Proper field care goes a long way and 2-3 wet vacs can dry out a diamond pretty quickly. that was how we handled it. and we got almost every bracket game in with over 5" of rain beginning thursday night - thru sunday.

David, I was not at your tournament. I was responding based upon your post only. Sounds like you did all you could and more than most. Our HS has a tarp but it is difficult to deal with and rarely used as a result.

Tarps sound like a potential solution to the problem. Would anyone be willing to rent tarps to TD's for a reasonable rate?