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Batter has two strikes swings ball hits the hand strike three or foul ball? It was called strike 3.
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Strike 3, batter is out.
NFHS Rulebook:
NFHS Rulebook:
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What line is (i) refering to? A batter's box line?
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And, just to clarify the already correct answer given, rule 8-1-2b notes that "The batter's hands are not to be considered as a part of the bat".
That they are is probably one of the most common rule myths that refuses to die and go away.
Since this pitch first hit the batter, not the bat, it can never be a legally batted ball and thus can never become either a fair or foul ball. The instant any pitch touches the batter the ball is dead. If the batter was attempting to contact the pitch, it is a strike. If strike three, the batter is out.
That they are is probably one of the most common rule myths that refuses to die and go away.
Since this pitch first hit the batter, not the bat, it can never be a legally batted ball and thus can never become either a fair or foul ball. The instant any pitch touches the batter the ball is dead. If the batter was attempting to contact the pitch, it is a strike. If strike three, the batter is out.
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This is a high school rule only. It refers to any chalked line on the field. In the case of a batter, more than likely you're talking about one of the batter's box lines. It could be a runner on, say, third base who intentionally erases a foul line and that would result in a strike to the batter, also.
If a member of the defensive team purposely removes a line marked on the field, the batter is awarded a ball.
If either team committs this offense, in addition to the ball/strike penalty, that team is to be issued a warning. If the violation is repeated by that team, the player wiping out the line and the head coach are restricted to the dugout.
That might all sound like overkill, but it is a high school rule. Unfortunately, umpires don't get to choose which rules to enforce and can't just ignore the ones they think are stupid. This one is kind of stupid...
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Ok since we go that rule dowm, I got another rule question. This scenario happened to someone elses team and was relayed to me and I thought I would find out form the OFC experts!!
Here goes. Runners on the corners ( highschool game) ball hit to outfield and caught fly ball. Runner from 3rd tags and scores. Runner from 1st tags and goes to second.. Before next pitch coahc asks for appeal at 1st base citing that girl never tagged up. Pitcher tosses ball to 1st and umpire calls runner at 2nd out.. Ok sounds good so far. and they leave the run on the board..( it was discussed and home plate umpire says it's good) 2 innings later, home plate umpire explains to that team that he now must remove the run because it should not count. he was told this by his field umpire??
Ok should the run count/ should it have not been left on the board in the 1st place, and after you count the run, even if it is a mistake, can you pull it off 2 innings later?? i ask the experts, cause Im not positive here, so i will just see what they have to say??
Here goes. Runners on the corners ( highschool game) ball hit to outfield and caught fly ball. Runner from 3rd tags and scores. Runner from 1st tags and goes to second.. Before next pitch coahc asks for appeal at 1st base citing that girl never tagged up. Pitcher tosses ball to 1st and umpire calls runner at 2nd out.. Ok sounds good so far. and they leave the run on the board..( it was discussed and home plate umpire says it's good) 2 innings later, home plate umpire explains to that team that he now must remove the run because it should not count. he was told this by his field umpire??
Ok should the run count/ should it have not been left on the board in the 1st place, and after you count the run, even if it is a mistake, can you pull it off 2 innings later?? i ask the experts, cause Im not positive here, so i will just see what they have to say??
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I would say that since the appeal is not a force out, all runs that scored before the appeal count, and the umpire was correct and then his partner talked him into a bad reversal - but as Crush said, I am interested in what the more experienced members have to say
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If "the hands are part of the bat" is the top rule myth, then that a runner being called out on appeal for not tagging up is a "force out" that negates the run is right behind it- definitely makes the top five list!
A "force out" can only be called when a runner is put out before advancing to the next base when she is "forced" to advance by the batter becoming a batter-runner (ie: on a safe hit, a walk, an uncaught third strike, etc.).
On a caught fly ball, the batter is out so the runners are never "forced" to advance. Whenever the batter is put out before safely reaching first base, there can never be a force out against any runner.
With two outs, when the third out is made by an appeal play against a runner who left early, this is known as a "timing play". Whether the run counts or not depends on the "timing" of the appeal.
If any other runners cross the plate before the appeal, their runs count.
If the runners cross the plate after the appeal, then their runs do not count.
From the description of this play, it sounds like the appeal came well after the runner from third had already scored. The run should count and, after the appeal is made, the plate umpire should clearly announce that the run counts so that both scorekeepers are aware of it.
The call should not have been changed in the first place and I'm not sure why these umpires thought it should have. Changing it two innings later is poor game management and probably shouldn't be done. But it is not unheard of. A similar play happened in a Cleveland Indians game a couple of years ago and a Major League umpire reversed a timing play call several innings later!
It's not a recommended procedure and something that should be avoided at all costs. It's somewhat more tolerable if the first call was incorrect and is changed to make it right. These umpires had it right the first time and changed it to make it wrong!
Depending on the explanation the umpires gave, if they were misinterpreting a rule this would be a 100% protestable call- if your games allow protests, which Ohio school games do not.
If they erased the run because they said the appeal was made before the runner crossed the plate, then that is a judgment call and can't be protested- even if it's bad judgment. If they claim that the run can't count because it was a "force play" then that is a misapplied rule- file the protest!
A "force out" can only be called when a runner is put out before advancing to the next base when she is "forced" to advance by the batter becoming a batter-runner (ie: on a safe hit, a walk, an uncaught third strike, etc.).
On a caught fly ball, the batter is out so the runners are never "forced" to advance. Whenever the batter is put out before safely reaching first base, there can never be a force out against any runner.
With two outs, when the third out is made by an appeal play against a runner who left early, this is known as a "timing play". Whether the run counts or not depends on the "timing" of the appeal.
If any other runners cross the plate before the appeal, their runs count.
If the runners cross the plate after the appeal, then their runs do not count.
From the description of this play, it sounds like the appeal came well after the runner from third had already scored. The run should count and, after the appeal is made, the plate umpire should clearly announce that the run counts so that both scorekeepers are aware of it.
The call should not have been changed in the first place and I'm not sure why these umpires thought it should have. Changing it two innings later is poor game management and probably shouldn't be done. But it is not unheard of. A similar play happened in a Cleveland Indians game a couple of years ago and a Major League umpire reversed a timing play call several innings later!
It's not a recommended procedure and something that should be avoided at all costs. It's somewhat more tolerable if the first call was incorrect and is changed to make it right. These umpires had it right the first time and changed it to make it wrong!
Depending on the explanation the umpires gave, if they were misinterpreting a rule this would be a 100% protestable call- if your games allow protests, which Ohio school games do not.
If they erased the run because they said the appeal was made before the runner crossed the plate, then that is a judgment call and can't be protested- even if it's bad judgment. If they claim that the run can't count because it was a "force play" then that is a misapplied rule- file the protest!
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So if I am reading it right, then theoretically the run will always count as long as that runner who scored the run left on time. Because you can't appeal during the actual play, so that run would always score as I stated "leaves on time" themselves?
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Sure, you can appeal during the actual play.
Of course, you could never execute a dead ball appeal during a live play. But you could certainly execute a live ball appeal!
A live ball appeal is, as the name suggests, an appeal that happens during a live ball. If the runner leaves early and the catch is made, the defense can throw the ball directly to the base, while runners are still advancing, to make a live ball appeal.
Make the live ball appeal for the third out and no runs can score after that point. Just to be clear, we are talking about making the appeal- either live or dead- against a runner other than one that crossed the plate. If the appeal is made against a runner that scored, then that runners run is cancelled, as well as any run made by any runners who crossed the plate after her. Any runners who scored ahead of her would still count.
Of course, you could never execute a dead ball appeal during a live play. But you could certainly execute a live ball appeal!
A live ball appeal is, as the name suggests, an appeal that happens during a live ball. If the runner leaves early and the catch is made, the defense can throw the ball directly to the base, while runners are still advancing, to make a live ball appeal.
Make the live ball appeal for the third out and no runs can score after that point. Just to be clear, we are talking about making the appeal- either live or dead- against a runner other than one that crossed the plate. If the appeal is made against a runner that scored, then that runners run is cancelled, as well as any run made by any runners who crossed the plate after her. Any runners who scored ahead of her would still count.
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Aha, so you answered my question and I learned the live appeal as well. Do they just throw and the ump decide on the live appeal, or do they have to state appealing or something???
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Generally, all appeals must be "unmistakable" in nature. That is, it must be clear exactly what infraction is being appealed.
When a runner takes off at the crack of the bat, a fielder catches the ball and fires right to the base, all in one quick continuous action, just touching the base is "unmistakable" in that it's obvious what is being appealed.
If there was some appreciable time lag between the catch and the appeal- such as intervening plays on other runners or the fielder throwing the ball to the cutoff first- then "just to be sure" the defense should verbally state the reason for the appeal. Touching the base with the ball and saying, "She left early", is good enough.
When a runner takes off at the crack of the bat, a fielder catches the ball and fires right to the base, all in one quick continuous action, just touching the base is "unmistakable" in that it's obvious what is being appealed.
If there was some appreciable time lag between the catch and the appeal- such as intervening plays on other runners or the fielder throwing the ball to the cutoff first- then "just to be sure" the defense should verbally state the reason for the appeal. Touching the base with the ball and saying, "She left early", is good enough.
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Thanks for the explanation Bret... When I mawled it over in my head I could only think that the run should score because of the reasons you posted, no force, run had already scored etc. But i was just unsure if there was some obscure rule about advancing runnsers on tag ups and the last out being and appeal after the play..
Thanks again
Thanks again
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Okay Bret, then I have a question about an umpire call. There is a runner on third base, the batter hit a ball to 3rd base who through to first, first threw ball to home to tag the runner at home out.
Blue called runner out at first, but she stayed on base. No one caught it. The scorekeeper didn't see blue make the call and thought the runner was safe. Several plays later that runner scores. Blue then told everyone that he had called the runner out at first but couldn't do anything about it now because play had continued with her on base. Run counts. (bad coaching error definately) but what is the actual ruling?
Blue called runner out at first, but she stayed on base. No one caught it. The scorekeeper didn't see blue make the call and thought the runner was safe. Several plays later that runner scores. Blue then told everyone that he had called the runner out at first but couldn't do anything about it now because play had continued with her on base. Run counts. (bad coaching error definately) but what is the actual ruling?
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Whew. You hope those are the kind of decisions you never have to make because you would hope that you didn't let a player who was already called out stay on base!
Since the umpire DID originally call the batter at at first, and even after she "scored" he admitted he had called her out, I can't see anyway you would ever let her run count.
This is something that isn't specifically addressed by any certain rule. In other words, there isn't a rule that covers a runner who has no business being on base remaining on base and being allowed to score. There probably isn't a rule because this is something that should never happen!
One possible rule that might come into play is the one about interference by a retired runner. If the batter stayed at first, then subsequently interfered with a following play, or caused the defense to play upon her, that could be ruled as interference. Since the retired runner is already out, she is still out and the penalty is that the runner closest to home is also called out.
In such cases where something is not specifically covered by a rule, the plate umpire has the right and duty to rule as he sees fit to correct the situation. I can't see a ruling that this run would count as being either fair or reasonable.
Personally, my ruling would be that this runner had been called out and thus has no legal status as a legitimate baserunner. If she had interfered with any subsequent plays, there would be an additional out recorded for that interference. And the run would not count!
Since the umpire DID originally call the batter at at first, and even after she "scored" he admitted he had called her out, I can't see anyway you would ever let her run count.
This is something that isn't specifically addressed by any certain rule. In other words, there isn't a rule that covers a runner who has no business being on base remaining on base and being allowed to score. There probably isn't a rule because this is something that should never happen!
One possible rule that might come into play is the one about interference by a retired runner. If the batter stayed at first, then subsequently interfered with a following play, or caused the defense to play upon her, that could be ruled as interference. Since the retired runner is already out, she is still out and the penalty is that the runner closest to home is also called out.
In such cases where something is not specifically covered by a rule, the plate umpire has the right and duty to rule as he sees fit to correct the situation. I can't see a ruling that this run would count as being either fair or reasonable.
Personally, my ruling would be that this runner had been called out and thus has no legal status as a legitimate baserunner. If she had interfered with any subsequent plays, there would be an additional out recorded for that interference. And the run would not count!
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THank you. Because our coaching staff is relative new to the travel ball arena, we weren't certain how to handle the situation. To be perfectly honest we tried to just go on, but the mental breakdown to our girls because of this one play was detrimental. We just couldn't get our girls to realize that run didn't matter, it was only one run. But I do agree it should not have counted.
Was it the umpires responsiblity to make take her off base or was it ours to make sure she knew she was out?
Was it the umpires responsiblity to make take her off base or was it ours to make sure she knew she was out?
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Call it a "team effort". Whoever noticed it should have addressed it on the spot and removed the retired runner from the bases. In that respect, everybody kind of dropped the ball on this one.
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Thanks Bret. 
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