2011 All-Ohio Selections

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Not to take away from your point about being snubbed and politics, but as to your claim of top 3 hitters in any lineup, the last stats I saw for Div. 1 Louisville had Desi Givens batting close to .600 with 10 hrs, Chandler Rice hitting about .475 with 7 homeruns and Emily Isla batting about .470. Both Givens and Rice had over 30 rbis also.

Aside from non-conference snubbing and politics, it sounds like those voting don't have much to go on other than the stats they are given. As discussed previously (in a different thread), stats (while they should not be) are very subjective. Every scorekeeper has their own "system".

On top of that, unless familiar with the player/team, it is likely those voting don't know what kind of schedule/level of competition those stats are based on (for example, a Division I team playing a predominantly Division II schedule).

No slight intended... those are very impressive numbers for any level of competition. Just saying, stats alone are deficient. I guess it's no surprise that these predominantly stat based, political awards are less than perfect.

I don't think it will ever be perfect but (as suggested), there must be a better system. Although, I'm not sure anybody that could, wants to take the effort to make it better.

 

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It all starts with the coach/coaches and not the process. I coach in the Central District D3 and have for 8 years. Not sure the process is the same in every district but I'm sure it's comparable. Each coach has to make a decision which one or two of his players is most deserving of recognition, and most put them in the order they would generally see them as being most deserving (my #1 choice, then #2, and so on...)

As an example in D3, there were 25 coaches voting on three 1st Team All-Ohio Spots, three 2nd teamers and three honorable mention. There may have been 14-17 girls put up for first team, and only one from each coach that put a player up...why because if you put up two there is a chance that the votes will split and neither of your choices get on. thats not political...its simple math!! So you as a coach have to make a hard decision on who you feel is most deserving and then talk that player up, if they do get the first team nod then you have another opportunity to get your second choice on 2nd team or honorable mention and so on. its a tightrope walk to say the least.

Now as far as the North Canton Hoover situation, I would say that Lilley was the coaches #1 selection for 1st Team All-Ohio followed buy ??? and the votes just fell where they only got the one, or as I stated previously he got greedy, put 2 or more up and the votes canceled each other out to where he finally got one honorable mention.

One final thought...there is always going to be girls that are deserving that do not get credit for some reason or another, but there are only so many awards to give out and we don't want to give everyone an award and take away from what the award represents.

 

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Also as mentioned earlier....in the Central District you have to be a paid member that has made it to the specified number of meetings and service requirements.

In the Central District there were 38 D1 teams but only 32 of those coaches could vote or have players recognized. 6 coaches choose not to be members

In D2...22 teams and 15 active coaches (7 non-members)
In D3...25 teams and 23 active coaches (2 non-members)
in D4...16 teams and 9 active coaches (5 non-members)

Good chance if you see a team with alot of players choosen and some players not then it is because the coach was not able to nominate players or vote. Get on your coaches and make sure they are paid members and attend the required meetings!!

 

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It also helps to be in a conference that has a lot of schools in the same district and same division as those coaches appear to always vote as a block. A school that has no one else in their conference has a much tougher time than a school who has 6 or 7 other schools from their conference to vote.

 

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It also helps to be in a conference that has a lot of schools in the same district and same division as those coaches appear to always vote as a block. A school that has no one else in their conference has a much tougher time than a school who has 6 or 7 other schools from their conference to vote.

Agreed...in 2013 the MOAC will gain three D3 schools putting them at 11 of the current 25

 

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It all starts with the coach/coaches...

As an example in D3, there were 25 coaches voting on three 1st Team All-Ohio Spots, three 2nd teamers and three honorable mention.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

So, am I understanding your post correctly that the D-3 Central District was allocated 3 "all state" spots at each level (1st, 2nd, HM) and the 25 paid member/meeting attending coaches (of the 28 coaches) in the Central District voted as to who in the Central District got the "Central District" All State spots?

If yes, how is the number of spots a district gets determined?

In looking at D-1, there does not appear to be a specific allocation to each district.

Tks.

 

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Lady Knights - another question...

You mentioned by nominating 2 players at the same time the votes could cancel each other out.

Is there essentially 3 rounds of voting? Nominate who (and as many as) you want for 1st team... everybody votes, top 3 vote getters are 1st team? Nominate who you want for 2nd team (if they didn't already make 1st team)... everybody votes.... top 3 vote getters are 2nd team, Same for HM... ??

 

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Question #1
Our bylaws state that we get 1 for every 7 eligible coaches (paid and have all meetings and service requirements met)...So in D1 Central District there were 32 coaches eligible so 4 awards at the 3 levels. Had 3 more coaches been eligible D1 would have gotten another 3 awards...This 1 for 7 is for all divisions. So coaches not eligible hurts kids at every level and basically screws kids out of awards!!

Question #2
Yes there are three rounds of voting. But if you put up say 2 or say 3 kids, with 25 votes, the votes could get split in away that none of your kids make 1st team....
For example, lets say the top three vote getter got 23, 20, and 18 votes respectively. If I had put up two girls and they split votes 15 and 10 then neither one makes first team...but if I only put up 1, and she has good stats her chances are better.
Case in point...a few years back a new coach came in and nominated 3 kids for 1st Team All-Conference, she ended up not getting any 1st team players because they split the vote pretty much equally. One was very much deserving and had she just put her up, she would have made 1st team.

Its not all about politics, which can never be totally taken out of it, but coaches have to know there players and be good with the math, and unfortunately to many coaches can't do the math without a calculator.;&

 

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On top of that, unless familiar with the player/team, it is likely those voting don't know what kind of schedule/level of competition those stats are based on (for example, a Division I team playing a predominantly Division II schedule).

No slight intended... those are very impressive numbers for any level of competition. Just saying, stats alone are deficient.

No slight intended - but, just in case, for example, if you are suggesting that Div. 1 Louisville played a soft schedule because they had played in a league with Div. 2 schools (even though the size difference of the schools is not much at all, with Louisville, a small Div. 1 in a league vs medium to large Div. 11 schools) - Louisville beat these much larger Div. 1 teams this year - Lake twice, Perry twice, GlenOak twice, McKinley twice and State champ Hoover. Louisville's Div. 1 All-Ohio pitcher Brittany Flanigan earned her placing in All-Ohio, no doubt. No need for politics there. Louisville played against some stiff competition. To suggest otherwise is to play politics.

 

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No slight intended - but, just in case, for example, if you are suggesting that Div. 1 Louisville played a soft schedule because they had played in a league with Div. 2 schools (even though the size difference of the schools is not much at all, with Louisville, a small Div. 1 in a league vs medium to large Div. 11 schools) - Louisville beat these much larger Div. 1 teams this year - Lake twice, Perry twice, GlenOak twice, McKinley twice and State champ Hoover. Louisville's Div. 1 All-Ohio pitcher Brittany Flanigan earned her placing in All-Ohio, no doubt. No need for politics there. Louisville played against some stiff competition. To suggest otherwise is to play politics.

I though my point was pretty straight forward. Stats alone can be misleading.

One factor noted that I think undoubtedly impacts those stats and could contribute to them being misleading is the difference in the level of competition players face over the course of a 20-25+ game regular season.

No intent to imply that you have to be D-1 to be "good competition". (Poland & Keystone are a couple of examples in D-2 that I think would compete with anyone in the state, at any level.)

I do think that a team playing a schedule that consists of just a couple of big dogs in their division could potentially lead to better stats than a team butting heads with the division big dogs all of the time. To steal an old adage, it's not comparing "apples to apples".

Same goes for the post you replied to boasting of "the best 1, 2, 3 batters in the state" and having the "best 2nd baseman in the state" at CCC. D-3 stats are relative to D-3. Great numbers, great season and probably great players. They still had to earn those numbers but they are likely relative to D-3 competition.

While I am sure there are some exceptions, I just don't think you can compare stats achieved vs. one division to stats achieved vs. a different division.

Not saying D-3 girls (for example) couldn't put up just as impressive of numbers if they played a D-1 schedule. Just saying they didn't play a D-1 schedule so you can't compare their stats to a girl that played D-1.

 

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I though my point was pretty straight forward. Stats alone can be misleading.

One factor noted that I think undoubtedly impacts those stats and could contribute to them being misleading is the difference in the level of competition players face over the course of a 20-25+ game regular season.

No intent to imply that you have to be D-1 to be "good competition". (Poland & Keystone are a couple of examples in D-2 that I think would compete with anyone in the state, at any level.)

I do think that a team playing a schedule that consists of just a couple of big dogs in their division could potentially lead to better stats than a team butting heads with the division big dogs all of the time. To steal an old adage, it's not comparing "apples to apples".

Same goes for the post you replied to boasting of "the best 1, 2, 3 batters in the state" and having the "best 2nd baseman in the state" at CCC. D-3 stats are relative to D-3. Great numbers, great season and probably great players. They still had to earn those numbers but they are likely relative to D-3 competition.

While I am sure there are some exceptions, I just don't think you can compare stats achieved vs. one division to stats achieved vs. a different division.

Not saying D-3 girls (for example) couldn't put up just as impressive of numbers if they played a D-1 schedule. Just saying they didn't play a D-1 schedule so you can't compare their stats to a girl that played D-1.

Just keep things in context: the guy boasting CCCs stats put them up against any other team in the state regardless of division. Louisville went undefeated against Div. 1 opponents in the regular season, including state champ Hoover, Perry and Lake. Those teams won 5 of the last 7 state championships in Div. 1. This thread is about who got named All-Ohio. No argument that politics are involved, or that stats can be misleading. My statement is, in Louisville's case, stats as a reason they were selected is a weak argument.

 

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All this High School award stuff is so political.. Example last year my daughters team won their district, didnt even have one player make even Honorable Mention all district.. Figure that one out.