ASA States - Question

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Does anybody know who determines when ASA States is played? I think So Cal plays their ASA in late May. Just makes sense to me to have it early (or atleast the first qualifier) so all teams can attend. This year ASA States is the fourth qualifier of the summer (I think) atleast for 12U. 4 very good teams who could have an ASA State title can not compete in the ASA States tournament. Yes, a team could not play the first 3 qualifiers and go to ASA States if they thought they had a chance at the title or forfeit an earned bid, but if a teams goal is to go to ASA/USA why would they do that. ASA States could be one of the biggest and most competitive tournaments of the year if it was held at an earlier date.JMO

 

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Ohio ASA determines when States are played. The Commissioner is Warren Jones. The situation with respect to timing is better than it has been in past years, when it was sometimes held even later than June 22.

A better solution to the problem that you identify, in my humble opinion, would be to allow those teams that have already qualified to partiticipate in States. Ohio ASA has the authority to do this (and indeed, in a true National Qualifier as that term is defined in the ASA Code, the Code specifically states that existing berth holders may participate without forfeiting their existing berth) but has chosen not to. If an existing berth holder were to win or place at ASA States, the ASA States berth to ASA/USA would not evaporate, but rather would be passed down according to very specific tie-breaking rules. The only remaining argument that I can see against allowing existing berth holders to play in ASA States would be that some good teams might be eliminated from the tournament by a team that already has a berth.

The problem with excluding existing berth holders from ASA States becomes most important at the 16u age group, as this State tournament draws a lot of college coaches.

BTW, I would be surprised if there are four ASA/USA qualifiers at 12U prior to States. I am aware there is Dayton Metro and perhaps there is a Region 9 open and/or closed qualifier (I just haven't been following the dates of the strictly 12u tournaments). Strongsville, which is held after States, is the only remaining qualifier unless you live in a geographical area that is eligible for the Cincy Metro qualifier.

Finally, especially at the younger ages, I don't think a team should pass up early tournaments offering berths on the fear that the team won't be allowed to play States. We are not going to be able to play States at 16u this year, and that stings, but I can't imagine that we would forfeit our existing berth or that, had we not earned the berth last summer, we would have skipped the ASA/USA qualifiers that precede ASA States this summer.

 

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Okay everybody - did you notice how many times berth was spelled with an "e"? That's actually correct ...

 

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I actually started a new thread once to point that out. It's one of my pet peeves and I was probably my normal cranky self that day.

 

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First I can't stand the rule about risking your berth to play in the ASA state tournament. Last year my daughter's team which had won ASA states 3 straight years ( 2 years at 14U and 1st year of 16U) had to skip the tournament or risk losing nationals berth they already had. I know some people would say you should still play, but that berth is what the girls work so hard for and it is not worth risking losing because against the top teams and pitchers in the state there are no guarantees. Anyone can get beat.
As far as the original poster's questions regarding timing. There are 2 things that must be considered when comparing ohio to other states. The OHSAA and when high school softball is played. The OHSAA does not allow players to participate with their summer teams until their high school season is over. That would affects teams at 14U-16u-18u greatly. The absolute earliest they could schedule those ages for ASA states would be the week after the state high school tournament ends in order to make sure all players can participate. Some other states do not have this restriction or play high school softball in the fall so they can schedule differently.
BTW- it was very hard to not spell berths with an i just for fun

 

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Ohio ASA determines when States are played. The Commissioner is Warren Jones. The situation with respect to timing is better than it has been in past years, when it was sometimes held even later than June 22.

A better solution to the problem that you identify, in my humble opinion, would be to allow those teams that have already qualified to partiticipate in States. Ohio ASA has the authority to do this (and indeed, in a true National Qualifier as that term is defined in the ASA Code, the Code specifically states that existing berth holders may participate without forfeiting their existing berth) but has chosen not to. If an existing berth holder were to win or place at ASA States, the ASA States berth to ASA/USA would not evaporate, but rather would be passed down according to very specific tie-breaking rules. The only remaining argument that I can see against allowing existing berth holders to play in ASA States would be that some good teams might be eliminated from the tournament by a team that already has a berth.

The problem with excluding existing berth holders from ASA States becomes most important at the 16u age group, as this State tournament draws a lot of college coaches.

BTW, I would be surprised if there are four ASA/USA qualifiers at 12U prior to States. I am aware there is Dayton Metro and perhaps there is a Region 9 open and/or closed qualifier (I just haven't been following the dates of the strictly 12u tournaments). Strongsville, which is held after States, is the only remaining qualifier unless you live in a geographical area that is eligible for the Cincy Metro qualifier.

Finally, especially at the younger ages, I don't think a team should pass up early tournaments offering berths on the fear that the team won't be allowed to play States. We are not going to be able to play States at 16u this year, and that stings, but I can't imagine that we would forfeit our existing berth or that, had we not earned the berth last summer, we would have skipped the ASA/USA qualifiers that precede ASA States this summer.

Very good post... Ohio's ruling not allowing berth holders to play is our right ridiculous.. The meager arguments for it are babyish and simple minded, which I would argue with Warren himself on the subject. Point 1. This is a title for the State of Ohio in which you wuill not even allow some of the best teams in the State to enter- Dumb Point 2. You are afraid to be beat by a team that already has a berth- do I really have to say dumb here. Point 3. If a berth gets passed down how fair is it to determine who gets it because the 5th/6th or 7th/8th place team lost out in same round? so in order not to hear one or two teams argue about who derserves the passed down berth ( which ASA has rules in place already to determine such) you will screw over 4-6 teams a year that could play in one of the best tourney's in the State- Dumb

Now for those who wish to correct me and say that you, "Could" still play, just give up your berth...... even Dumber

 

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First I can't stand the rule about risking your berth to play in the ASA state tournament. Last year my daughter's team which had won ASA states 3 straight years ( 2 years at 14U and 1st year of 16U) had to skip the tournament or risk losing nationals berth they already had. I know some people would say you should still play, but that berth is what the girls work so hard for and it is not worth risking losing because against the top teams and pitchers in the state there are no guarantees. Anyone can get beat.
As far as the original poster's questions regarding timing. There are 2 things that must be considered when comparing ohio to other states. The OHSAA and when high school softball is played. The OHSAA does not allow players to participate with their summer teams until their high school season is over. That would affects teams at 14U-16u-18u greatly. The absolute earliest they could schedule those ages for ASA states would be the week after the state high school tournament ends in order to make sure all players can participate. Some other states do not have this restriction or play high school softball in the fall so they can schedule differently.
BTW- it was very hard to not spell berths with an i just for fun

I think So Cal has the 10 and 12U's early and plays the older ages later because of school ball. I think having the ASA State tournament the first qualifier of the year for these age groups (10 & 12) in late May here in Ohio could produce one of the biggest and most competitive tournament of the year. Throw in a location where the best complexes are in the state and it would definitely be big.

 

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Just for arguments sake, lets pose the question a little bit differently. Assume Ohio lets teams that have already qualified play in the tournament without the penalty of giving up their berth. Team A has a berth and is in the losers bracket playing Team B who does not have a berth. These are 2 of the remaining 8 teams in the tournament. One of them will be eliminated. The other would have a pretty good shot at earning a berth from this tournament. Again for purposes of argument, the eliminated team would have only a slight chance of having an unused berth passed to them. Both teams are in the same organization, and the head of the organization talks to the coach of Team A and reminds her/him that having another team from the organization qualify would really help boost the image of the overall organization. Would team A throw their #1, play all their best players, do everything possible to win?

 

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@dogsdad:

There is always a possibility that the coach of Team A would decide to throw the game, but I don't think that it is probable. First, it has been my experience that teams within an organization, while having great respect and even great fondness for sister teams, play their hardest against those sister teams. Second, Team A, playing out of the losers' bracket but with only 8 teams left, has a great chance at claiming an ASA States Championship. That is additional motive to play its best game.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be frustrating to get knocked out of the tournament by a team that already has a berth. I'm just saying that when the advantages of having all the quality teams represented in ASA States are balanced against the disadvantages of excluding some of the top competition, I would definitely opt for letting everyone play.

 

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I don't like it how we do it in Florida - but I don't win the arguement here either.

Teams with berths are allowed to play in qualifiers. The teams they play recieve an automic win and the team with the berth moves to the losers bracket. Again the team that plays that same team with a berth is awarded a win and the berth team moves into the consolation bracket. At that point the team with the berth plays the consolation bracket with all the other teams that lost their first two games. It's one and done from that point on. Consolation bracket teams can not advance to the qualifier championship.

All ASA teams play through in the State tournament regardless of their berth status.

 

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I don't like it how we do it in Florida - but I don't win the arguement here either.

Teams with berths are allowed to play in qualifiers. The teams they play recieve an automic win and the team with the berth moves to the losers bracket. Again the team that plays that same team with a berth is awarded a win and the berth team moves into the consolation bracket. At that point the team with the berth plays the consolation bracket with all the other teams that lost their first two games. It's one and done from that point on. Consolation bracket teams can not advance to the qualifier championship.

All ASA teams play through in the State tournament regardless of their berth status.

OK, I'm confused. "All ASA teams play through in the State tournament regardless of their berth status." The only thing I can figure out is that no berths are awarded in ASA States? And that the berths are awarded in the Winners-Losers-Consolation format you described in separate qualifiers? In Ohio between 4-5 ASA/USA berths are awarded through States.

 

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Don't get me started... it totally belittles the ASA State Tourney, both the champion and the teams that participated. It is supposed to be a State tourney to play for the title of State ASA Champ ... without 3-4 of the better teams participating it is just another "good" tourney. When a team wins ASA state and does not go to an ASA national tourney it should tell your something ...

 

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The ASA State tournament is open for anyone to win, even those with berths. Our State Tourney only awards 1 berth.

In the qualifiers the format is 3GG - double elimination. The brackets are set up in advance - if you win you go "here" - if you lose you go "there". Lose the first two and go to the consolation bracket - never to be seen again!!!!! Those still playing in the main bracket from that point are playing double elimination.

 

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Don't get me started... it totally belittles the ASA State Tourney, both the champion and the teams that participated. It is supposed to be a State tourney to play for the title of State ASA Champ ... without 3-4 of the better teams participating it is just another "good" tourney. When a team wins ASA state and does not go to an ASA national tourney it should tell your something ...

IMHO - if a team plays in a qualifier, wins a berth and does not intend to go to ASA Nationals they should be banned from playing ASA qualifiers for a year........