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3rd baseman yesterday for the opposing team had metal spikes. When brought to the attention of the umpire he said he wasn't sure of the rule but said "if your girls have them go ahead and put them on".
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Now that's bad...
ASA hasn't allowed metal cleats in youth play for nearly 30 years. This is a basic rule that any sanctioned umpire should know.
The correct way to handle this is to tell the player's coach that metal cleats are not allowed, then ask the coach to have the player remove them. If they do not, then that player is disqualified from further play.
ASA hasn't allowed metal cleats in youth play for nearly 30 years. This is a basic rule that any sanctioned umpire should know.
The correct way to handle this is to tell the player's coach that metal cleats are not allowed, then ask the coach to have the player remove them. If they do not, then that player is disqualified from further play.
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With most umpires coming out of HS ball, I think they were still in that train of thought, and the site TD was not sure of the rule. After talking with the Head TD, at another location, he confirmed, NO metal cleats, and all was well.
The "worst crow hop ever," now that was a different story.
The "worst crow hop ever," now that was a different story.
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The UIC was a very nice gentleman. He told me because her toe was pointed down thats why it wasnt called leaping even tho she was 10 inches off the ground. He went on to tell me our pitcher was "more illegal" because she drags the side of her foot and not her toe. Now I went through the rule book and I didnt see where it stated that it had to be the toe or the side of the foot. There is one reference in there to mens but not JO or female. I was pretty sure before i looked, but i went ahead and looked again. so if bretman man could explain this to me or someone else could quote the rule that covers this it would be very much appreciated. please No" I think so" or "I am pretty sure". Facts please. This was an ASA tournament. ?Thanks in advance.
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http://www.nfhs.org/web/2008/02/softball_video_clips__training.aspx
ASA and high school on terms of the drag foot are the same. Watch the legal drag above. Not sure what blue is talking about. ?In men's fastpitch they discuss the toe pointed down, not asa.
Here is a good web site that Bretman gave to me to look up rules on line.
http://www.eteamz.com/softballumpires/links/index.cfm?
ASA and high school on terms of the drag foot are the same. Watch the legal drag above. Not sure what blue is talking about. ?In men's fastpitch they discuss the toe pointed down, not asa.
Here is a good web site that Bretman gave to me to look up rules on line.
http://www.eteamz.com/softballumpires/links/index.cfm?
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I did see those clips at the start of H.S. season thanks. We did win both of those games so i dont want this to seem like sour grapes. I dont ever remember complaining about a picher crow hopping or leaping but this was pretty obvious. The metal cleats speak for themselves. I just dont understand how they can keep a job. If i didnt know my job any better than that i would probably be fired.
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Anyone else say different? The scary thing to me is he stated that he runs an umpire school and thats what he teaches, so all the umpires that attend his school are taught wrong also.
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An instructor and operator of an "umpire school" and he doesn't know these basic rules?
DO NOT enroll in that "umpire school"! ?
The explanations he gave you border on fantasy and have no bearing on the current ASA rules or interpretations.
Speaking ASA...
Adult males ONLY may legally leap from the pitcher's plate as long as the pivot foot toe is pointed down. This requirement ensures that the pivot cannot be replanted in a spot forward of the plate.
For women and Junior Olympic or youth players, the pivot foot does need to maintain contact with the ground as it drags away from the pitcher's plate. "Ten inches" off the ground is obvious and blatantly illegal. I would call that in a heartbeat.
(The reason for the rule difference lies with those that oversee the men's game. They lobbied the ASA rules committe a few years ago to get this pitching rule put in place. Allowing the men to leap preserves what they felt was an accepted part of the men's game and should be legalized. Keeping the toe pointed down is supposed to prevent replanting and ?crow hopping.
The girl's game could have this same rule if the people involved in fastpitch were to go through the same committees and conventions and votes to change the rule. That they have not shows that they do not prefer this rule, or perhaps do not think it would garnish enough support to pass the rules committee.)
The part about your pitcher being "more illegal" is...I will try to be polite here...pure bull! There is no restriction in the rules about dragging on the side of the foot, as long as the foot maintains contact with the ground.
DO NOT enroll in that "umpire school"! ?
The explanations he gave you border on fantasy and have no bearing on the current ASA rules or interpretations.
Speaking ASA...
Adult males ONLY may legally leap from the pitcher's plate as long as the pivot foot toe is pointed down. This requirement ensures that the pivot cannot be replanted in a spot forward of the plate.
For women and Junior Olympic or youth players, the pivot foot does need to maintain contact with the ground as it drags away from the pitcher's plate. "Ten inches" off the ground is obvious and blatantly illegal. I would call that in a heartbeat.
(The reason for the rule difference lies with those that oversee the men's game. They lobbied the ASA rules committe a few years ago to get this pitching rule put in place. Allowing the men to leap preserves what they felt was an accepted part of the men's game and should be legalized. Keeping the toe pointed down is supposed to prevent replanting and ?crow hopping.
The girl's game could have this same rule if the people involved in fastpitch were to go through the same committees and conventions and votes to change the rule. That they have not shows that they do not prefer this rule, or perhaps do not think it would garnish enough support to pass the rules committee.)
The part about your pitcher being "more illegal" is...I will try to be polite here...pure bull! There is no restriction in the rules about dragging on the side of the foot, as long as the foot maintains contact with the ground.
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We asked the UIC before game and BOTH umpires agreed that metal spikes were ok if they were no longer then 3/4. Before our 2nd pool game on the next day a different ump and one of the field workers told us no metal spikes. No problem, she changed to plastic. The last ASA tournament we were in have had players with metal and plastic.
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Metal spikes are not allowed in ASA. ?That is a black and white rule. ?There is no gray area at all. ?Follow the rules like most others and leave the metal spikes at home. ?Don't bring them to the park and try to talk an umpire that doesn't know the rules into letting you use them. ?That isn't ethical and it doesn't teach your kids to do the right thing.
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Thanks bretman. I can only hope that the UIC reads OFC then maybe he can teach his umpires what is correct. If he doesnt read OFC then he is worse than i thought. lol.
One other thing, I was watching div.1 state championship game last night on STO and Miss Simpson from North Canton Hoover drags the side of her foot on about 50% of her pitches I think it is her rise ball, curve she drags her toe. The girl from Elyria Miss Sito drags the side on all of her pitches. Two of the best pitchers in the state i wonder if they would say they are "more illegal".
One other thing, I was watching div.1 state championship game last night on STO and Miss Simpson from North Canton Hoover drags the side of her foot on about 50% of her pitches I think it is her rise ball, curve she drags her toe. The girl from Elyria Miss Sito drags the side on all of her pitches. Two of the best pitchers in the state i wonder if they would say they are "more illegal".
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backstop08 said:
OK.... Where in the world did someone say that we tried to talk the ump into letting her use metal spikes. You don't know me from Charlie Brown so don't go preaching that I am not ethical and that I am teaching my girls to do the wrong thing. When high school ok's it and a girl buys metal, and ASA says no and she has plastic also. She brings both in her equipment bag. She had on the metal spikes, the other coach asked the UIC and he said yes, as long as they were shorter then 3/4 inch. So at no point did I or the girl "try to talk the ump to give us our way". When the UIC told us the next day, he said it was because of the insurance liability and not an ASA rule.
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LADY_KNIGHTS said:With most umpires coming out of HS ball, I think they were still in that train of thought, and the site TD was not sure of the rule. ?After talking with the Head TD, at another location, he confirmed, NO metal cleats, and all was well.
The "worst crow hop ever," now that was a different story.
LADY_KNIGHTS is correct.... All was well.
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I could really care less one way or the other, I just wanted clarification. If they were going to allow them, then I wanted to let my girls wear them as well, if they chose to do so. Again, it wasn't a big deal.
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Well...I guess it's time to set the record straight and stop all this nonsense!
First...let's tackle the issue of metal spikes. We had 7 diamonds and used 30 umpires. I was not able to be at all locations and trusted my umpires to know the rules and make proper interpretations. Unfortunately...that's not always the case. We are human and do make mistakes. And yes...it DOES get confusing sometimes when you work several different rule sets (OHSAA< ASA< NAFA etc). No excuses...just fact.
I received a call from one of my site managers asking about metal cleats being legal and told him that they are illegal in ASA. He reported this to the coach of the team in question and the player changed to plastic. End of story. To my knowledge, there was no attempt to coerce an umpire into allowing his players to wear metal cleats. Please remember that MANY tournaments institute special "tournament modifications" to the rules. It is very possible thaty a team could play in an ASA tournament that might have a modification allowing metal cleats, just as they might adjust the courtesy runner rule or the run spread rule. It's too bad that one or more of the umpires made an incorrect ruling in an earlier game, but these things happen.
On to the illegal pitcher. TRIBEFAN24...you need to get your facts straight.
While I did talk to you regarding the legality of the opposing team pitcher and that as a rule of thumb we teach our umpires to watch the toes to see if they are turned down as a guide to call thr crow hop, I never said your pitcher was more or less legal. What I said was that if we called the letter of the rule, we could call most pitchers illegal. I also went on to explain that because of the deep hole in front of the rubber, that remaining in constant contact with the ground as required is impractical, especially after nearly 20 games on 3 days. My crew did a great jkob of keeping the fields in shape, but the areas of constant use, pitchers mound and batters boxes are difficult to maintain in perfect condition with that much use. There was never any doiscussion between you and me regarding dragging with the side of the foot compared to the toe.
As for your attacks on me personnaly, I resent them.
I did not say I run an umpire school. I said I help teach a class for umpires. And I will stack our umpires up against any group of umpires in the state. I would suggest that you come and attend class sometime. We can always use new umpires.
Your post asked for "Facts Please"...well here thay are.
Any other questions? I'll be happy to answer.
First...let's tackle the issue of metal spikes. We had 7 diamonds and used 30 umpires. I was not able to be at all locations and trusted my umpires to know the rules and make proper interpretations. Unfortunately...that's not always the case. We are human and do make mistakes. And yes...it DOES get confusing sometimes when you work several different rule sets (OHSAA< ASA< NAFA etc). No excuses...just fact.
I received a call from one of my site managers asking about metal cleats being legal and told him that they are illegal in ASA. He reported this to the coach of the team in question and the player changed to plastic. End of story. To my knowledge, there was no attempt to coerce an umpire into allowing his players to wear metal cleats. Please remember that MANY tournaments institute special "tournament modifications" to the rules. It is very possible thaty a team could play in an ASA tournament that might have a modification allowing metal cleats, just as they might adjust the courtesy runner rule or the run spread rule. It's too bad that one or more of the umpires made an incorrect ruling in an earlier game, but these things happen.
On to the illegal pitcher. TRIBEFAN24...you need to get your facts straight.
While I did talk to you regarding the legality of the opposing team pitcher and that as a rule of thumb we teach our umpires to watch the toes to see if they are turned down as a guide to call thr crow hop, I never said your pitcher was more or less legal. What I said was that if we called the letter of the rule, we could call most pitchers illegal. I also went on to explain that because of the deep hole in front of the rubber, that remaining in constant contact with the ground as required is impractical, especially after nearly 20 games on 3 days. My crew did a great jkob of keeping the fields in shape, but the areas of constant use, pitchers mound and batters boxes are difficult to maintain in perfect condition with that much use. There was never any doiscussion between you and me regarding dragging with the side of the foot compared to the toe.
As for your attacks on me personnaly, I resent them.
I did not say I run an umpire school. I said I help teach a class for umpires. And I will stack our umpires up against any group of umpires in the state. I would suggest that you come and attend class sometime. We can always use new umpires.
Your post asked for "Facts Please"...well here thay are.
Any other questions? I'll be happy to answer.
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WL-UIC
I think the "who did or didn't said what" discrepancy might be caused by a misidentification of which umpire you were during the Danger vs Lady Bullets game. Which were you - plate or bases?
It was the base umpire that said "Your pitcher is more illegal than theirs." This was referring to the Lady Bullets pitcher being more illegal than the Danger pitcher. I know that umpire said it because I heard him.
As far as the condition of the pitcher's circle, that had little to do with the hop that was taking place. The Danger pitcher would have been a good 6-8 inches off the ground even on a perfectly flat surface.
I think the "who did or didn't said what" discrepancy might be caused by a misidentification of which umpire you were during the Danger vs Lady Bullets game. Which were you - plate or bases?
It was the base umpire that said "Your pitcher is more illegal than theirs." This was referring to the Lady Bullets pitcher being more illegal than the Danger pitcher. I know that umpire said it because I heard him.
As far as the condition of the pitcher's circle, that had little to do with the hop that was taking place. The Danger pitcher would have been a good 6-8 inches off the ground even on a perfectly flat surface.
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Not even close, ?i understand you dont want to look bad on here, ?but the fact is crow hop never came out of my mouth. in the discussion to you I dont like to use crow hop it is over used by parents and fans who dont understand the difference. it was leaping and you told me the toe pointed down ?which has nothing to to do with leaping. You did tell me because she drags the side of the foot she would be called first because that is what you teach them in class. I am the one that told you that i understand that most pitchers if not all pitchers could be called for it. Hers was as bad i have seen. We didnt discuss the hole in the front of the mound it didnt effect how high she was leaping.
I did get something wrong you told me you taught the umpires in that area, and you told me you taught a class. Not a school that was my mistake sorry. Had you given the explanation sunday you put on here today i would of probably been alright with it. The most important thing is that anyone else in your class will be taught correct.
I have never complained publicly about an umpire. dd has played 5 years travel thats a whole lot of games. I understand that there are going to be some bad calls, and that our team doesnt get every bang bang call to go our way. I understand that it is a tough job, but your explanations in person were just, ?wrong and what you told me may of been different than what you meant. Maybe after all those games it was a little confusing for you. I had one conversation with you and i remember it well, and you had how many with how many different people on how many different rules, so i understand if your recolection of ours isnt real clear, ?i forgive you.
Im actually sorry that it was under this thread because people know who it is. Im sorry about that.
But feel free to pm me
I did get something wrong you told me you taught the umpires in that area, and you told me you taught a class. Not a school that was my mistake sorry. Had you given the explanation sunday you put on here today i would of probably been alright with it. The most important thing is that anyone else in your class will be taught correct.
I have never complained publicly about an umpire. dd has played 5 years travel thats a whole lot of games. I understand that there are going to be some bad calls, and that our team doesnt get every bang bang call to go our way. I understand that it is a tough job, but your explanations in person were just, ?wrong and what you told me may of been different than what you meant. Maybe after all those games it was a little confusing for you. I had one conversation with you and i remember it well, and you had how many with how many different people on how many different rules, so i understand if your recolection of ours isnt real clear, ?i forgive you.
Im actually sorry that it was under this thread because people know who it is. Im sorry about that.
But feel free to pm me
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What's with the red eyes thingie? :-?
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It means the moderators are watching the thread and if things continue in the personal and direct manner the thread may be shutdown.
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