Blown ruling or bad umpire Etiquette ? Oh Bretman

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I mentioned this situation in another thread but wanted to see if this has happened to other teams as well.
Bases were loaded , 2 outs , girl batting drops down a bunt , pitcher or 3rd fields and throws to 1st (run scores) 1st base blue calls her SAFE on a bang bang play.

Coach comes to argue with 1st base ump, talks him into asking for help from the home plate ump , and the home plate ump reverses the call at 1st. Not a question of foot touching bag or was the ball bobbled , simply home plate blue saw it different than the 1st base blue . Is there a written rule that states what can be overruled in a case like that.

Next inning another close play at 1st and the 1st base ump acted terribly offended when we ask him to check with home plate blue for help. Bad precedent ? bad etiquette ? breaking some unwritten rule of umping ?

MD

 

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an umpiring question with nearly 100 views and no comments --looks like all the blue's are sleeping in on Labor Day. :cap:

 

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I'm curious about the guidelines for what can be appealed as well. Last season DD's coaches tried to appeal a couple times and were told no, couldn't appeal a call. But did have one appeal go our way similar to MD's example - on play at 3rd both umps saw it differently and the plate ump overruled the base ump when appealed.

Hopefully our resident blues get back from vacations or tourneys and can shed some light on this.

 

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you can not appeal ; safe or out / ball or strike. If you do you could be ejected with no warning.

but you can appeal fielder pulled foot or runner missed bag / ball hit batter or batter swung or foul tip etc

 

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Sounds like the first base umpire was "shamed" into asking for help. Don't think an experienced umpire would ever ask for this kind of help.

The only possible help I could see coming from the home plate umpire would be determining if a foot was still on the bag when the play was made. However, with the bases loaded the home plate umpire should not have been watching what was going on at 1B. He should have determined that the runner from third touched home plate then looked to 3B as his next option.

 

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MD, was field ump between SS and 3rd on play? I see this a lot and the field ump will sometimes put themselves in a poor position to see the play at 1st. You can ask the the field ump to ask for help from the plate ump, but they do not have to if they feel there is no doubt in their call. I like when I see and hear umps work and communicate as a team; they let the other know what play and base they are watching.

 

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you can not appeal ; safe or out / ball or strike. If you do you could be ejected with no warning.

but you can appeal fielder pulled foot or runner missed bag / ball hit batter or batter swung or foul tip etc

That's interesting because it was a safe/out call that was appealed. Catcher threw to 3rd to pick off runner. Base ump was between SS and 3rd, seemed to be in a good position for the call. Our coaches appealed and the plate ump overruled the base ump to call runner out. It went in our favor but it seemed strange to me that we could appeal that call.

In other games the umps just said, "No, can't appeal that" when asked on a safe/out call. Although one of those was asking about 1B pulling her foot, but they said we couldn't appeal. Nothing like consistency;&

 

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so whats the official ruling ? can it be legally appealed or not ?

 

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The answer I always like to give is that a coach is always within his rights to ask for an appeal; however, an umpire is always within his rights to not allow it - unless it is a rules issue (and them some still won't give). A good umpire will not grant one on a "judgment" call unless he/she was screened in such a way and not able to make the call. If his partner overruled him from home plate without being asked to by the field umpire - he created a major faux pas and would have had a problem with me after the game if I was in the field.

 

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I was waiting for Bretman to get on here but here goes my swing at this.

Any umpire can ask another umpire what he/she saw. One umpire cannot over-rule the other. The umpire that originally made the call is the one who can change the ruling, based on any information that the other umpire provided.

So, in my opinion, the plate umpire had no right to over-rule the base umpire.

For asking on a second appeal, you are well within your rights, but you are really pushing your luck.

 

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polite bump

 

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Hey Dan, I thought it was great how our girls just went about business after this extremely strange happening. It was really great to see their workman mentality.

Definately a game in which winning would have been nice, but to see our girls take the challenge and go out there and focus on competing was a great reward as a parent.

IF BRETMAN or others provide a definitive ASA ruling on this, it might be appopriate to share with South Carolina Umpire Orgs, so they can have a growth moment to improve the game, especially at showcases for the girls.

 

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trip , you better quit posting so much --you will be at 2000 before you know it.

And yes , I would like a definite ruling on this. my guess is if the base ump doesn't mind getting over ruled then nothing legally stops the home ump from offering his opinion.-- But in this scenario the ump who changed the call had to know it was a "game changing" decision , go ahead run --last inning. Changing a bang bang play at 1st should not be a call easily reversed, esp when it wasn't his call to begin with. MD

 

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When a coach asks an umpire to check with his partner, he really needs to have some valid reason for asking besides the fact that it was a close play and he didn't like the outcome.

Was the umpire grossly out of position? Was his view blocked by a player? Was there a pulled foot or a swipe tag where the umpire's angle might have prevented him from getting a good look? Did the ball pop loose after a tag and the umpire missed it? Did a runner leave early on a catch and the umpire was looking the other way? Was there contact between the batter or a runner with a batted ball that might have been missed?

Any of those might be a valid reason to ask an umpire if he could please check with his partner and ask if he saw something else that was missed. But you really need to be specific as to what exactly it is you're asking about. If none of the above apply and you just don't like the call, chances are slim that the umpire is going to check just so you can get a "second opinion" on a judgment call.

And, if none of those apply, and the coach isn't voicing any of those concerns, the umpire shouldn't check with his partner just to placate the coach. If you do that, you've opened the door for every close play to be questioned. That can make for a very long and controversial game.

If the umpire making the call is in position and is sure of what he saw, then he has every right to tell the coach he's not going to ask his partner about it. On the other hand, a good umpire will know when he might have missed something or if his view was blocked. In those cases, he should gladly go to the other umpire to see if he has any additional information.

Keep in mind that even if an umpire does ask his partner for help, it won't always ensure that the call will be changed. Many times, the other umpire is positioned farther away and has an even worse view of the play. Many more times, the other umpire has his own things to be watching, like a catch or no catch or other runners touching their bases, and won't be watching the same thing as his partner.

For instance, I have had my partner ask me about a tag play at third base. All I could tell him for sure was that the other runners had touched first and second and there wasn't any obstruction or interference there, because that was what I was supposed to be watching!

In recent years there has been an emphasis on "getting it right", which often means that the umpires will huddle or confer if any of the above issues are raised. That is a good procedure and one I have used. But the flip side of this is that more and more often coaches are expecting every close call that doesn't go their way to be discussed. This past year I had more coaches come out and ask me to check with my partner- on plays that were routine judgment calls- than ever before. And they do seem to get a little miffed when you don't just automatically ask.

Raellis123, this might have even been you! I was the base umpire in a tournament and had a routine tag play at second base. I was in position, right on top of it, saw it clearly and had no doubt about my "out" call.

The offensive coach came out- very calmly and politely, I might add- and asked me if I could check with my partner to see if he had anything "different", stating that the plate umpire might have had a "better angle". Sorry, no, it was my call and I had it. My partner was at least 90 feet away and there was nothing concrete he could add, other than an opinion, that would possibly change my call.

A few weeks later, different tournament, same team, almost the same play at second and the same coach comes out to ask me to "get help". Again, he was friendly and polite about it, but raised no issue about any element of the play I may have missed, like a pulled foot or dropped ball. He was, it seemed, just fishing for a second opinion.

Same answer from me- "Sorry, Coach, it was my call and I had it". Even though I handled this correctly, I got the feeling that this coach might have thought I had something against him! That wasn't the case at all. These were both simple "out or safe" tag plays and nothing happend on them that that would make me even think about going for help.

One more and then I will shut up!

One of the more unusual plays where "asking for help" really did help happened to me this year. I was the plate umpire. There were two outs and runners on first and second.

The ball was hit to the outfield. The runner on second rounds third. He is my responsibility in the two-umpire system and I'm watching him. The runner on first is going for third. That runner and the batter-runner are the base umpire's responsibility.

But, for some reason, the base umpire turned his back on third base and went toward the batter-runner. The throw came into third! Seeing that he wasn't watching third base, I slid up the foul line and made the call on the tag at third, calling the runner out.

Now we have a big problem! Since there were two outs, this was a timing play as to whether or not the run counted. Normally I would have been positioned close to home to watch the lead runner touch the plate. Since my partner was ignoring third base, forcing me to cover that play, I didn't have any idea if the runner from second had touched home before the third out or not. My back was facing home plate.

The offensive coach pipes up right away, not so much asking me to get help as just asking if the run counted or not. Without hesitation, I went straight to my partner to see if he could help. Even though he had abandoned the call at third, he did turn and see the runner touch home right before I called the out at third.

Thank you, Partner! I pointed at the plate and announced that the run counted and we didn't hear another peep about it. On this play, "asking for help" got the call right and saved a major headache!

 

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Thanks for the explanation Bretman - great job and very helpful as usual! Good point for coaches - need to be specific in what you are appealing.

I don't think it was you on the calls I mentioned. One was a pickoff at 3rd base (appeal that went our way, but I think appeal shouldn't have been allowed) and another was a pulled foot at first (call didn't go our way, appeal wasn't allowed but probably should have been).

 

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This actually happened in an NPF playoff game:

Runner at third, one out. Batter hits two hopper down third baseline. Just as the third baseman fields the ball about 5 feet in front of the base, the plate umpire throws up his arms and yells, "foul ball!" The runner at third stays on the bag. The third baseman instinctively throws to first. The batter stops in her tracks halfway to first. The defensive coach comes out to argue that he felt the ball had been fair. He's asking the plate ump to get help from the third base ump. Remember, the plate ump's call (and it WAS HIS call to make) had influenced the runner to stop and the batter to stop. Most fielders would not have made the throw, either. The plate ump goes out and talks to the base ump. After some discussion, the call is reversed, and the batter is declared out. The runner remained at third.

I have to tell you, I was absolutely mystified by this one. Had I been the offensive coach, I would have come unglued.

First, it's the plate ump's call as long as the ball isn't past the bag. Second, once he made his call, even if it was the wrong call, the batter and the runner were both influenced by it, so he can't predict what WOULD have happened had the correct call been made in the first place. It's hard to believe these guys were umping in the NPF playoffs.

 

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That is hard to believe! I wouldn't expect to see that in a low-level recreational game, let alone a pro game!

Standard procedure is that once a ball is declared foul, it IS foul and there's no reversing it. You can't "unring the bell", "put the genie back in the bottle" or "put the toothpaste back in the tube"- pick your metaphor.

I imagine that they have protests in NPF ball. If I was the offensive coach I would have been filing one!

 

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This actually happened in an NPF playoff game:

Runner at third, one out. Batter hits two hopper down third baseline. Just as the third baseman fields the ball about 5 feet in front of the base, the plate umpire throws up his arms and yells, "foul ball!" The runner at third stays on the bag. The third baseman instinctively throws to first. The batter stops in her tracks halfway to first. The defensive coach comes out to argue that he felt the ball had been fair. He's asking the plate ump to get help from the third base ump. Remember, the plate ump's call (and it WAS HIS call to make) had influenced the runner to stop and the batter to stop. Most fielders would not have made the throw, either. The plate ump goes out and talks to the base ump. After some discussion, the call is reversed, and the batter is declared out. The runner remained at third.

I have to tell you, I was absolutely mystified by this one. Had I been the offensive coach, I would have come unglued.

First, it's the plate ump's call as long as the ball isn't past the bag. Second, once he made his call, even if it was the wrong call, the batter and the runner were both influenced by it, so he can't predict what WOULD have happened had the correct call been made in the first place. It's hard to believe these guys were umping in the NPF playoffs.

I was at this game. I'm an umpire and I was stumped by this call. The only thing I could think was that she steped on the plate when she made contact. It didn't appear so from where I was sitting.

 

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I was waiting for Bretman to get on here but here goes my swing at this.

Any umpire can ask another umpire what he/she saw. One umpire cannot over-rule the other. The umpire that originally made the call is the one who can change the ruling, based on any information that the other umpire provided.

So, in my opinion, the plate umpire had no right to over-rule the base umpire.

For asking on a second appeal, you are well within your rights, but you are really pushing your luck.

I thought all appeals had to go to the home plate umpire and he/she can over rule the base umpire? And even then it would have to be a "rule" in question and not a call(this is what I have seen and been told over and over)

 

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I thought all appeals had to go to the home plate umpire and he/she can over rule the base umpire? And even then it would have to be a "rule" in question and not a call(this is what I have seen and been told over and over)

This is a commonly misunderstood procedure. But you are somewhat correct in that the process is a little bit different depending on if it is a judgment call being questioned or the proper application of a rule.

It even came up in my game last night, where my base umpire made a call at second base and the offensive coach came to me- the plate umpire- to argue about it. Sorry, I can't reverse a judgment call that the base umpire made and was his to make! I told him to go talk to the umpire that made the call.

Generally, what is laid out in the "Umpire" section of the rule book and the accepted protocol is this:

- If a coach has a question about a call, he needs to speak with the umpire that actually made it. If he goes to a different umpire, that umpire should direct him to the proper one. If the call wasn't his, the umpire first asked should refrain from commenting on the play or offerring any opinion unless asked by the other umpire.

- No umpire can overturn another umpire's call. Many think that the plate umpire is "the boss" on the field and can reverse anything he wants. That isn't the case.

- The umpire that made the call can ask his partner(s) for additional information after the play. But only the umpire that made the call can actually reverse his own decision.

- There are some limited circumstances where the plate umpire does have the final say. For instance, if both umpires make conflicting calls on the same play- which shouldn't happen if each umpire is doing what he's supposed to do, but unfortunately it can. If they can't come to an agreement after huddling up, the plate umpire has the final say.

Other cases where the plate umpire does have the final word include if there is some conflict in a rule interpretation or runners must be placed to rectify a delayed or reversed call.

About the only time I would ever deviate from this process is if my partner is a totally inexperienced rookie and made a blatantly wrong call. Even then, I'm not going to just jump in and reverse him! I'm going to talk with the other umpire, tell him what I saw, strongly suggest a solution, then leave it up to him to change his call.