first base. white or orange?

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at the lasers tournament. one of our girls hits grounder to infield. throw is off target to first. girl makes nice play on orange bag. runner takes white bag. runner clearly out. ump calls safe. fielder makes play on wrong bag. whats the call?

 

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Sounds correct to me.

I do not think a throw that pulls the 1st base off the white part and onto the orange part of the bag is an allowable reason to use the orange side. In another thread it is discussed that if 1st has to go into foul ground they are allowed to come back and touch orange to avoid contact.

 

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It does sound right. If a throw is off line and 1st has the use the orange bag, then the runner has the right to use white bag and vice-versa. Personally, I think by 14u, they should eliminate that orange bag because the girls muscles are more developed and they should be able to control their throws better.

 

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Runner is out. Under ASA the orange & white portions become one large bag, and depending on which side the play is made from, the batter/runner and fielder may use either to avoid collision. The players made the correct choice, the umpire did not. After the play, runner must return to white portion, because orange is only for batter/runner purposes.

P.S. IMO, just another reason why kids should be taught base running using "the big kid's rules". The players would probably have executed this play exactly the same with a single white bag, and there would have been no confusion - OR injury.

 

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Stupid white/orange safety bases.......totally agree Sammy.

Len

 

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I argued a call last year that got overturned in our favor in a USSSA tournament.

Dropped 3rd strike that went into foul territory, so the 1st basemen takes orange bag so as not to have the Catcher's throw cross the path of the runner. They initially called the runner safe, even though she was beaten by 2-3 steps.

After explaining why the defense chose to go to the orange bag (safety of runner), she was then called out.

 

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Speaking ASA rules...

If the initial play/throw is going to the white bag, and the throw pulls the fielder from the white base to the colored one, this is treated the same as the fielder being off the base. This is not one of the exceptions under ASA rules where the fielder may legally use the colored base.

As described, I would have the runner safe.

The defense may use the colored base if they are completely off the base and completely in foul ground. In that case, requiring the fielder to touch the white base would cause her to cross the path or the runner. Allowing the colored base to be used in this situation is a concession to safety.

If the fielder is simply pulled directly from the white base to the colored one, that puts the fielder directly in the path of the advancing runner and also allows the defense to benefit from a poor play on their own part. That is not the intent of the ASA rulemakers.

 

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I argued a call last year that got overturned in our favor in a USSSA tournament.

Dropped 3rd strike that went into foul territory, so the 1st basemen takes orange bag so as not to have the Catcher's throw cross the path of the runner. They initially called the runner safe, even though she was beaten by 2-3 steps.

After explaining why the defense chose to go to the orange bag (safety of runner), she was then called out.

The USSSA rule was changed a few years ago. Their double first base rules are now essentially identical to ASA. The play you describe was perfectly legal. You shouldn't of had to argue that one! The batter-runner should have been called out to begin with.

 

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Same type of thing happened this weekend at Compuware. First base bobbled the ball after trying to use the white bag, ball went foul and the firstbaseman tried to use the orange bag. Runner was called safe becuase it was a defensive error that pulled the fielder off the bag. Umpires said only time bags can be interchanged is for the safety of the girls.

 

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Cmon bretman reread the umpire rule book page 86 rule 8 section 2 M 5(page 85 in participate book) On an errant throw pulling the defense off the white portion of the the base into foul ground,the defense and the batter-runner can use either the white or contrasting color portion. RUNNER IS OUT

 

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Cmon bretman reread the umpire rule book page 86 rule 8 section 2 M 5(page 85 in participate book) On an errant throw pulling the defense off the white portion of the the base into foul ground,the defense and the batter-runner can use either the white or contrasting color portion. RUNNER IS OUT

I don't need to re-read it. I've read it many times before and know what it says.

This is what happens when somebody pulls a single rule out of the rule book, without having been taught the meaning behind it and the interpretation of the sanctioning body...

I can assure you that the interpretation I have posted is the ASA interpretation of how this is to be called. This was covered in one of the two ASA National Umpire Schools I attended.

"Off the base" means that the fielder is completely off the base and completely in foul ground, such that requiring them to touch the white base would force them to cross over the orange bag, directly into the path of the runner.

If you let the fielder go directly from the white base to the orange portion, you are letting the fielder go right into the runner's path. From the standpoint of safety, that is not the intention of the rule.

 

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Then you need to read it again it specifically says on an errant throw to first bag pulling the defense off the bag into foul ground the defense can use either bag. It is called a safety bag for that reason. If the throw pulls the fielder into foul ground you DO NOT want the fielder crossing the bag to the white portion with a runner approaching causing a collision. That is why the defense uses the colored portion and the runner would use the white TO AVOID A COLLISION. it is a safety bag.That is the intent of the rule to avoid collisions. I have attended the umpire schools also that is the intent of the double base

 

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If the throw pulls the fielder into foul ground you DO NOT want the fielder crossing the bag to the white portion with a runner approaching causing a collision.

We agree on this point and I already stated that.

What we don't seem to agree on is the definition of "off the base and into foul ground".

My understanding is that if the fielder is set up on the white base to receive the throw, but the throw is "off" only enough to cause her to shift her feet directly to the colored base, that is not to be interpreted as "off the base and into foul ground".

Suppose that the fielder is set up on the white base to take the throw. Where is the runner going to be running? Straight to the colored base (we hope). If the fielder shifts over just enough to be on the colored base, the fielder is now in a direct collision course with the approaching runner. Yes, runners may switch over to the white base when the defense uses the colored bag, but in the case of an errant throw it is likely that the fielder would be moving over at the last second, too late for the runner to switch over to avoid her.

On the other hand, if the fielder is completely off the base and completely in foul ground, such that she must "come back" to the orange base, the runner should have time to recognize this and be able to avoid the fielder.

Allowing the fielder to use the orange base when she is completely off the base and completely in foul ground allows both players to prevent a collision.

Allowing a fielder to move directly from white to orange puts the fielder right in the runner's path and makes a collision more likely.

 

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This was discussed on another site and Bretman's answer is consistent with what was posted by several other well-respected umpires.

[soapbox]
It would be very helpful if the rules were written more clearly so they could be taken at face value rather than require additional reference material and/or training to interpret them correctly.
[/soapbox]

 

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How about we just take the stupid orange base out of the game and play it like big girls.

 

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That would work for me!

 

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How about we just take the stupid orange base out of the game and play it like big girls.

Unfortunately, a lot of " big girls" have big cabooses and often times hog the bag, giving the baserunner limited access to the bag.

It's a never ending circle.
Two bases..........confusion and missed plays
One base.........collisions and injuries
............

I'd rather have a few misinterpreted rules than a serious collision resulting in injury.

 

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Unfortunately, a lot of " big girls" have big cabooses and often times hog the bag, giving the baserunner limited access to the bag.

It's a never ending circle.
Two bases..........confusion and missed plays
One base.........collisions and injuries
............

I'd rather have a few misinterpreted rules than a serious collision resulting in injury.

It is unfortunite that kids are not being taught the right way to play first base so to avoid a collision, but sometimes it happens and its part of the game, don't want a collision, dont play. Sorry, but its JMO, do you see the orange base in college?

 

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It is unfortunite that kids are not being taught the right way to play first base so to avoid a collision, but sometimes it happens and its part of the game, don't want a collision, dont play. Sorry, but its JMO, do you see the orange base in college?

Does Ohio have them in HS? We don't.

 

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Does Ohio have them in HS? We don't.

Some do some don't, we will never have them on our field.