Getting bad instruction...

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The emerging consensus on this and other threads appears to be that the player should do exactly as the HS coach suggests. I'm not drinking that kool-aid, at least with respect to a player who is performing well. If I had a DD in high school who made a positive contribution to her team, I'd tell her to nod respectfully and keep doing what she was taught by her private instructors and what has resulted in success in travel ball. I acknowledge that the people in favor of doing what the HS coach suggests are being reasonable and that there is no perfect answer in this situation. I just can't agree that a HS coach always knows what is the best technique for a player who has sought out private coaching prior to her HS career. If the HS player is productive, leave her technique alone. That, by the way, is the rule that I apply to myself in travel ball. You won't see me trying to change a player who has a great batting average and fielding percentage. And frankly, I also won't try to change the player who has miserable stats and clearly doesn't want to change.

What I find interesting is that the consensus on doing what the coach asks has emerged prior to any games this year.

You are wise beyond your years Carol. If that's possible.
 
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Uber:

I think you are clearly right that setting forth generalities, of which I have been guilty, doesn't make much sense with respect to this topic. Of course, the problem is that asking a poster to be very specific about the conflicting instructions may reveal the identity of the coaches and thus expose the player to a risk of retaliation.

I agree, but letting negativity fester is not all that healthy lol. I guess my point of view is this: About 75% of players I get for the first time, field the ball differently from what I teach. I see the majority of players, field the ball with both feet square using the clap, stab, spin and throw technique lol. I teach lead foot fielding, using many Kobata drills to teach this. On a few occasions I get, well this is how I was taught. I also teach the rocker step for lead-offs, I realize there is some debate to lead-offs. IMO that is the most effective lead-off when done properly, nobody is going to convince me otherwise lol. But, when I teach lead foot fielding or rocker-step lead-offs or out in foul back in foul at 3rd base, I really dont think I should have to debate parents or players on how they were taught and how I am teaching something everytime I teach something that is not exactly how they were taught by somebody else.

If we coaches at any level High School, travel, rec ball etc., are required to debate with players and parents everything we teach differently from their previous coaches or specialty coaches or game management we really arent going to get much accomplished. We make assumptions that 1) the specialty coach is right 2) The high school coach is wrong 3) There is only 1 kid on that team with an issue regarding how the coach is teaching something 4) The parent knows what they are talking about or is giving us all the facts 5) The differences between what the player is being taught by the High school coach and the specialty coach is significant.

Most posts start off with: My DD is being taught by a great specialty coach, and her high school coach wants her to do it differently. The next response is Email the coach, explain to the coach...., set up a meeting with the coach etc., Most of us know JoeA and LadyKnights are good, knowledgable coaches...Joe was a high school coach and Ladyknights is a high school coach. So if a parent came on here and said " JoeA/Ladyknights is teaching my kid something different from her specialty coach, and I am furious, he doesnt know what he's talking about" Its unlikely the response would be the same as what unkown high school coach/Unknown specialty coach gets.

I know there are knucklehead coaches out there, met them, been around them and seen them in action. I suggest not feeding the parents negativity until they give some facts lol, then maybe if a coach is telling their pitcher DD to throw a 15 lb ball full motion they can hear from some experienced coaches that she should not be doing that and they can confidently approach the coach or if the coach is telling their DD not to sweep the ball into the throwing position people on here can give their advice on that and maybe the parent wont stew on something they are incorrect on making everybodies life easier hahahah.

As always love debating this subject and all this is just my IMO. If the majority feel whenever there is a debate on what is being taught you should always address it with the coach, then so be it lol :)
 
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Btw my last post is not directed at will2win, just the responses this kind of post generally gets from the masses.

I just highly doubt that over the years of reading OFC and year in and year out seeing posts about high school coaches changing the way things are done, that in every case the coach Didnt know what they were talking about, the specialty coach was right, the kid was executing what the specialty coach was teaching, the kid was communicating to their parents exactly what was going on, there was no axe to grind etc.,

I also realize this is a place to vent, but in a few posts I get the vibe people are not looking for answers (clearly will2win was IMO) and are more looking for people to tell them they are right to be mad and the coach is a knucklehead.
 
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Uber jones says a mouthful and I couldn’t agree more. I signed on intending to write a similar post, only to find I was beaten to it. Lol. Here are my thoughts and opinion.

I know we have some bad school coaches out there, just as we have some bad travel coaches in the mix. WHAT, a bad travel ball coach??? YES, it does happen. Bottom line; I’m not a stuck in the mud kind of coach incapable of realizing there’s more than one way to skin a cat. (Back to the old phrases again). There are many efficient techniques that will get the job done. Let me share some information about the overall picture of the softball world. There are college coaches out there that despise travel coaches and don’t agree with everything they are teaching! WHAT??? Yes, don’t be surprised to find out that “all that and a bag of chips” player from high school AND travel ball goes to college and the first thing they are told is we do that different here----you’ll need to learn things our way. How can that be? Honestly, it’s all about who’s in charge.

I hope my earlier post didn’t mislead you to think that school coaches do everything right. Actually, I understand more than you know. I stuck up for the school coach for the well-being of your daughter. Going from team to team regardless of the skill level is no different than changing jobs in real life. A different business with a different boss has their way of doing something. Remember; a school coach has a wide variety of girls coming out for their team that are on different levels of play. They can’t recruit position specialists. This mix along with lack of unpredictable help may require a single coach to back up a few steps in the teaching process. Your daughter may be beyond them in talent, yet the coach simply wants everyone to conform to a basic style that will help teach the others and put them on track to improve. If your daughter will conform and execute now, perhaps she can gain the trust of the coaching staff and bleed a better method into the game without appearing to be an “expert” .

We’re talking about people skills and egos. As long as a coach is not making the girls do something that will physically injure them, the players should be following the orders of the person in charge. Your daughter was not hired to instruct the coaching staff. She volunteered to represent her school and community in competition. This IS unlike travel ball where you pay to play, can and will, if you choose the right travel team. Remember; I am a travel coach but I still understand how things work in the world.

Most high school coaches feel threatened by travel girls AND their parents. They know this “Band of Sisters” is coming in with talent and more field experience than some of the coaches actually have. They start out defensive and can be hard socially on your daughter, simply because of their own insecurities. They need to be in charge because it’s their job. Learning the people skills needed to get along with those in charge and others around you is truly an art form. Help the situation by being honest, and then understand the need to be a parent when it comes to venting about the problems of a program. While these young ladies seem very mature in their game, they are still developing social skills and will follow the lead of those credible to them------the parents. Parents can help minimize or defuse situations by making good choices about what they say around the girls.

You may be frustrated because the school coach is living in the dark ages in regards to our game as we know it. Perhaps your daughter DOES know the game better. Don’t teach your kids to be rebellious. Teach them how to interact with supervisors that can change once a credible relationship has been established.

We voted for Board members to represent us in decisions made at the school. They hand picked an administrative staff to recommend the hiring of teachers and coaches for the school district. If a bad decision was made and the final results are not acceptable, then there is a policy and protocol you need to follow to make changes. Just remember that the decisions were made for the benefit of everyone and not just your family and YOU helped start it all when you voted in representation. If the representation isn’t to your liking, get involved by running for school board and take affirmative action.
 
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Its interesting to watch a coach teaching a player who has a .600 BA the correct way to ground out. I once heard a ball player say "everyone is different why change a player who is very productive into something less".....I cleaned up the wording....it was 14 of the REDs.

The power of a coach; A player is to listen if you want to play........but prove your way works in production and a coach may never step into the reform mode.
 
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I agree, but letting negativity fester is not all that healthy lol. I guess my point of view is this: About 75% of players I get for the first time, field the ball differently from what I teach. I see the majority of players, field the ball with both feet square using the clap, stab, spin and throw technique lol. I teach lead foot fielding, using many Kobata drills to teach this. On a few occasions I get, well this is how I was taught. I also teach the rocker step for lead-offs, I realize there is some debate to lead-offs. IMO that is the most effective lead-off when done properly, nobody is going to convince me otherwise lol. But, when I teach lead foot fielding or rocker-step lead-offs or out in foul back in foul at 3rd base, I really dont think I should have to debate parents or players on how they were taught and how I am teaching something everytime I teach something that is not exactly how they were taught by somebody else.

If we coaches at any level High School, travel, rec ball etc., are required to debate with players and parents everything we teach differently from their previous coaches or specialty coaches or game management we really arent going to get much accomplished. We make assumptions that 1) the specialty coach is right 2) The high school coach is wrong 3) There is only 1 kid on that team with an issue regarding how the coach is teaching something 4) The parent knows what they are talking about or is giving us all the facts 5) The differences between what the player is being taught by the High school coach and the specialty coach is significant.

Most posts start off with: My DD is being taught by a great specialty coach, and her high school coach wants her to do it differently. The next response is Email the coach, explain to the coach...., set up a meeting with the coach etc., Most of us know JoeA and LadyKnights are good, knowledgable coaches...Joe was a high school coach and Ladyknights is a high school coach. So if a parent came on here and said " JoeA/Ladyknights is teaching my kid something different from her specialty coach, and I am furious, he doesnt know what he's talking about" Its unlikely the response would be the same as what unkown high school coach/Unknown specialty coach gets.

I know there are knucklehead coaches out there, met them, been around them and seen them in action. I suggest not feeding the parents negativity until they give some facts lol, then maybe if a coach is telling their pitcher DD to throw a 15 lb ball full motion they can hear from some experienced coaches that she should not be doing that and they can confidently approach the coach or if the coach is telling their DD not to sweep the ball into the throwing position people on here can give their advice on that and maybe the parent wont stew on something they are incorrect on making everybodies life easier hahahah.

As always love debating this subject and all this is just my IMO. If the majority feel whenever there is a debate on what is being taught you should always address it with the coach, then so be it lol :)

You teach the rocker step lead-offs ???
My DD`s base stealing coach has a problem with that.....lol...just kidding.....nice post
 
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... You talking to me? ....

"...just the responses this kind of post generally gets from the masses."

I have no idea how you could get that I'm talking to you from that. In fact I had to go back and check everything I posted on, because I had no idea who you were...so the answer is no lol.
 
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Teach your kids to be Winners!!!! Theres nothing wrong with that. If a coach is teaching them something stupid then they should not be afraid to expose it. Teaching them to just be quite and go along to get along will assure them of a weak standing in society. If you are looking to raise a follower then that approach will work. If your looking to raise a Winner then teach them to speak up if they know they are right then stand up for themselves, who knows maybe they can teach the coach something new and now everybody benefits. Don't shut your child up if they know they are right, allow them the chance to prove it.

I have a feeling that would get my kid benched. But you make the point of how important it is to teach your kid how to handle different approaches. I'm pretty sure 99% of HS coaches are not humble enough to take a piece of instruction from a player in front of other players or coaches - whether right or wrong. And I understand that. Can you imagine coach is giving a batting lesson and a player says "coach, your grip is all wrong - you should hold the bat like this...". But what if the player gets the coach alone and says "hey coach about my grip - I was at a clinic and learned this grip from this college coach and it really worked for me - would it be ok if I continued to use it?"

How does your DD's HS coach responds?

A. Sure, as long as you produce for me
B. Show me why it's better. Let me look into it and talk with my other coaches
C. You will grip the bat as I have instructed - or you will ride the pine INFIDEL! (just kidding about the infidel part...lol)
 
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Teach your kids to be Winners!!!! Theres nothing wrong with that. If a coach is teaching them something stupid then they should not be afraid to expose it. Teaching them to just be quite and go along to get along will assure them of a weak standing in society. If you are looking to raise a follower then that approach will work. If your looking to raise a Winner then teach them to speak up if they know they are right then stand up for themselves, who knows maybe they can teach the coach something new and now everybody benefits. Don't shut your child up if they know they are right, allow them the chance to prove it.

I understand where you're coming from with this, and don't want to be insulting, but it is naive in the extreme.

It's not your child's job or place to "expose" a coach's stupidity. Being quiet and going along is an important lesson and will not assure them of a weak standing in society. It's a life lesson that will serve her well. Look up the definition of discreet:
dis?creet

adj \di-ˈskrēt\
Definition of DISCREET

1
: having or showing discernment or good judgment in conduct and especially in speech : prudent; especially : capable of preserving prudent silence


Just sayin....
 
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"Winning" isn't always about being "right". Being a true "team player" is so much better than making every interaction a confrontational exchange. Advocating for self is probably a better way to go: working hard with a consistent effort, asking questions and clarifying information/instructions.
 
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OK I have been silent for over a year. LOL But I have to chime in on this because this is happening to my dd right now. Her High School ASST. Coach is a instructor for Crystal Bustos,(and I am VERY PROUD TO KNOW HIM and LOVE HIS AGGRESSIVNESS AND WILL COMPETE AND BE SUCCESSFUL)which is a GREAT GREAT way to hit, I really do get that, but I also get that, that system takes time, it takes drills on top of drills, and I am not copping out on this but volunteering to teach that and finding a instructor without having to drive to Cincinnati to see Howard twice a week and work 80 hours is something to take into consideration. This is my take, If you want your TEAM to learn this way of hitting then it needs to be taught on a continuous basis throughout the year. Either by hitting clinics put on by the group, and a posting that all intrested parties will be expected to hit this way. Thus the teaching somehow someway will be taught so that all year this is taught or offered somehow. If a team building is to be done this would be a good time to do it. Of course there could be no cost, and must be voluntary. You cant expect a team, who does not play together and come together 8 weeks out of the year, to learn this and execute this system in a matter of 10 min a day, this along with school work, employment, and other school activities. Ego's have to be put away, these are girls who do this as a high school sport most the time do not have instruction or have never heard of Crystal Bustos until they start teaching the method. What I have done is found my dd a hitting instructor who is a qualified hitting instructor, she also teaches pitching and has a tremendous background and is employed by a major college in our area. In winterball she raised her avg over 100 pts in the last 3 weeks after working with her. But now she cannot hit that way because its not the way her coach wants her to hit. So now she is frustrated, ready to quit, which is not in her vocabulary no matter how bad it has gotten, The only point I want to make is that these girls do this and usually only play softball 4 months out of the year, and I know they want to win, but most winning programs, this instruction takes place, and is taught at younger levels and through teams sticking together in small groups with instructors who teach the method the coach wants them to learn during the off season and summer.

When the coach demeaners (i think thats the spelling lol) the player, and actually keeps them to the point they doubt themselves they WILL GET NO! production from that player. Each player is different, each player has a point where something makes them tick, it is the coaches responsibilty to find that and get the most out of that player. Face it guys a state championship is great, and its what we want! But you use the hand your dealt with.
Not all methods are equally learned and does not work for each individual, try to find out what brings out the best in the girls, not what you want them to learn in a matter of 10 to 15 min individually working with them a day and expect them to learn it in 3 weeks before the season starts. Its not fair unless your volunteering to work with them year round on thier hitting. Especially when I am the one paying for her lessons taught by another year round. With respects to all coaches and this is in no way bashing but just a point of view.

Food for thought: Did Lisa Fernandez, Dot Richardson, hit like crystal bustos, i dont think she played that young. Does Albert Puhols have a different stance than Ted Williams did? It doesnt take a name to be productive. Only bringing out the best in your girls by finding what works best for them.
 
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Good points Bigdaddy. Coaches have to realize that they are not in a vacuum. I read that coaches do what they do for the players and God bless them because most do it for nothing. If they are there for the player, then a coach needs to understand that they have to allow for independent and private instructions - not railroad through their way. It doesn't build the skills of a player learning a different system with a different coach three times a year (HS, travel, and fall). The private instruction is usually more in depth, more consistent, and done by someone with more expertise then the head coaches (no offense intended just a sttement). Work with these kids rather than against them.

And I will say that my DD has had some coaches that did incorporate the private instructor's skills with my DD and it has worked for the betterment of my DD and the team. Even made the coach's job a little easier, too.
 
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I posted my opinion at the risk of having my daughter moved to JV or Sitting the rest of year on varsity. I just would like her to have a fair chance and not be bulldozed in a way where she is felt like its this way or sit. Which she has come home and stated. Dad he said I will play my position but will not bat. My reply was go back to JV and hit the way you want. I know that thats not the answer and the coach does too. I just don't believe that the lessons taught are enough time to set in and be executed with these girls. I have seen the team play in scrimmage and everyone is allowed it looks like to me to bat the way they want but her and the coaches kids who played on his travel team. I see that is a issue too. I would like for the coach to approach it like this. You bat the way you want for a period of 1 week, if thier is not any significant approval then you bat the way I want the rest of the year. That would be fair. But stop putting pressure on the kid. She has enough peer pressure as it is. This is why we drive 45 miles to play on a Travel Team where she has to prove NOTHING TO NO ONE and there is no pressure to preform. This is where she preforms best and stats prove themselves winterball, and a fall tournament in which we won, she did not even know she had highest BA in that tourney, but to get that she had alot of walks and sac's but thats not what counts. She is a contact hitter, excellent bunter, and always has a will to play, though not the best, she is true to heart, and COMPLETELY COACHABLE, but you have to find what makes her tick and exploit that! Do you get my meaning?
 
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We find it interesting when doing clinics that many of the girls when ask if they practiced 7 days a week on their own off a tee no one raised their hand.

How about 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1? Most were 1 or 2. We do not consider a team practice as working on their own.

The studies done on being an elite player, indicate it takes about 10,000 hours of 3 to 5 hours a day. It makes no difference if it is basketball, tennis, piano, dance or singing. The book titled The Talent Code is very interesting in that it points out to break your practice moves to the smallest details and if you make a mistake, start over again from the beginning.

When I talk to the kids about playing at the next level many do not consider they will be working at their sport 20 to 30 hours a week!

Time management is normally not taught by the parents and when they are on their own they become lost and over whelmed by trying to get their clothes washed, home work, trying to find time to eat or even have a social life.

Pick what swing works for you and who you wish to learn from and find out if it works for you. However wishing to become better usually does not make it happen.

For me some high school teams are just not worth the effort as you may be spending 20 hours or more week and their grades suffer for it however the parents think the scholarship money is worth the effort. It is the same thing with some travel teams. Pick the coach/ team and what they are teaching and see if your kid is willing to put in the time and effort and many kids are not and the parents get upset when they do not play.

Most travel team players are spending $2,500 to $5,000 dollars to play with gas, food and lodging plus other expenses.

In the end it is all about YOUR daughter wanting it and not you wanting it for her. Each kids needs and wants are different and most likely you will never change a high school coaches opinion so I would not waste my time trying it. Same applies to travel teams and or college coaches. You know who they are and what battles you are willing to take on......so choose wisely grass hopper! However teach her some life skills and time management should be one of them and in my opinion it truly is lacking in most situations.

I wanted to add this final thought....When some kids come to a clinic you can clearly see they have been taught to swing down on the ball, no weight shift, no vision training, no balance and most can not even throw properly. TSW has been considered to be an authority as to hitting techniques and I personally consider Crystl to be one also with a lifetime .400 plus batting average over 11 years facing some of the best pitchers in fast pitch. When she shows you what got her where she is today and she says the tee must become your friend and practice your swing doing it as slow as possible so you can feel it from your toes to your nose then I would listen.

On April 10 we will be doing a Parents /Coaches Clinic at Sports of All Sorts from 3:30 to 6:00 with dinner from 6 to 7 PM.

Come ask her yourself what works best and if you have a better way demonstrate it to her and get her opinion. She has a pretty good network of resources and can get an answer to any questions you may have in my opinion.

Howard
 
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i agree with that daboss, but these techniques are usually taught over a period of time, and in a matter of days, or 2 weeks a whole team is suppose to learn the method of hitting in your opinion is that possible when you have about 10 min to each individual?
 
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i agree with that daboss, but these techniques are usually taught over a period of time, and in a matter of days, or 2 weeks a whole team is suppose to learn the method of hitting in your opinion is that possible when you have about 10 min to each individual?

In a word No. Hs is like Tb in one respect, kids improve on their own time. An instructor can show them what it takes to fix their swing.Its up to the individual to accomplish that. Add to that the limited time you have in HS practices and you almost have to be a magician to accomplish any kind of teaching.

Tim
 
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Is there a right and wrong way to do it?Watch a college D1 game and how many of the elite players do things in an unorthodox manner compared to the way kids/coaches/parents have found to be the "right" way?

I say experiment and find what works best.If she is good enough to be seen by a college coach and get into college as a softball player,good chance college coach may change her anyway?

Funny though,how many highschool games I go to and see a batter get in the box,bend at the waist then relax the knees(I only went once so my terminology will probably be corrected by someone).Looks like a lot of kids went to Howard and Bustos?
 

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