Girl hit on the Hnads While Swinging

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Just yesterday I read that anytime the ball hits a batter it is dead. Last night one of our girls swung and hit a pitch, but hit it with her hands into fair territory. She immediately bent over in pain holding her hand, then realized she needed to run. She was thrown out at first base. Ump called her out on the force out. What is the proper call?

 

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from here:

http://www.game-ex.com/vb3/showthread.php?t=26802

The post discusses the top 40 myths of softball rules...

1. The hands are considered part of the bat. If a batter is hit with a pitch on the hands, it is simply a dead ball and the batter is awarded first base. Remember that anytime a batter is hit, it is ALWAYS a dead ball. If the batter is swinging and the ball contacts her hands first, we have a DEAD BALL/ STRIKE. If the ball contacts the batter in the strike zone same result if it is the third strike in either of these cases the batter is out. See ASA 7-4-G through I, and 8-1-F

 

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I just had to read to find out what Hnads were, lol.
(just a typo, I see)

 

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Yes, because she swung at the pitch the HBP was not in effect and because it was a fair ball the ball is live and she is forced.

 

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Yes, because she swung at the pitch the HBP was not in effect and because it was a fair ball the ball is live and she is forced.

You might want to think about that one some more...

This is still considered a "hit by pitch" (HBP) and all of the usual HBP rules are in effect here. It's just that some HBP rules give an award of first base, others don't. This one does not.

Once the ball touches the batter, it is immediately a dead ball. It can't become fair or foul...or "anything" else...because it's dead. Anything that happens after that point is moot.

Umpire should have called, "Dead Ball!" as soon as it touched her. If she was offering at the pitch, it is a strike. If it is strike three, the batter is out.

 

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Yes, because she swung at the pitch the HBP was not in effect and because it was a fair ball the ball is live and she is forced.

No, She swung at the pitch so it's strike, hitting it with your hands into fair territory is no more legal than head butting the pitch into play. A ball hitting a player in the hip and rolling into fair territory isn't a batted ball, and neither is one put into fair territory with her hands.

It's a dead ball strike, period. If it's strike three, she's out. If not she's still up.

Now umpire may have thought she hit it with the bat not the hands (hitting close to the handle can sting and that could have been the reaction he thought he saw) but if he thought she hit it with her hands, it's a dead ball strike.

 

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but 3dm why doesn't this apply?

Remember that anytime a batter is hit, it is ALWAYS a dead ball. If the batter is swinging and the ball contacts her hands first, we have a DEAD BALL/ STRIKE.

I'm trying to learn these rules - so any help is appreciated!



ETA: OOOPS - i see others chimed in while I was writing my reply... good. I think I'm getting this rule at least. I tell you - I am going to study those 40 myths very carefully!!

 

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This is still considered a "hit by pitch" (HBP) and all of the usual HBP rules are in effect here. It's just that some HBP rules give an award of first base, others don't. This one does not.

Once the ball touches the batter, it is immediately a dead ball. It can't become fair or foul...or "anything" else...because it's dead. Anything that happens after that point is moot.

Umpire should have called, "Dead Ball!" as soon as it touched her. If she was offering at the pitch, it is a strike. If it is strike three, the batter is out.

Bretman, I can't believe I am going to say this but "I disagree" with you on this. Can you tell me where to find the ASA rule that says the ball is immediately dead every time a it hits a batter? I cannot seem to find it. I do find that this does not qualify as an illegally hit ball, that it does not qualify as HBP and that the batter becomes a batter-runner when they hit a legally hit fair ball.

 

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If it wasn't a dead ball runners would be able to advance and/or score.

 

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If it wasn't a dead ball runners would be able to advance and/or score.

Yes, they should be able to as the ball was hit into fair territory just like any other legally hit ball.

I will concede when someone can point out in the rules where it says that:
The ball was not legally hit, thus making the batter a batter-runner
That every time a ball contacts a batter it is a dead ball

I cannot find anything in the 2010 rules that says either of these, so in my humble opinion the play happened as it should have.

 

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Here ya go The3dm. This is from a 2008 USSSA rule book.....it's the only book I have available at the moment.

Len​

RULE 10. DEAD BALL - SUSPENSION OF PLAY​

Sec 1.

The batter is awarded 1st base and all base runners advance one base (if forced), when a

pitched ball, not struck at and not called a strike, touches any part of the batter's person
or clothing (if not loose garment). The ball may strike the ground before it hits the batter.
​

​

EXCEPTION: ​

​

If the batter makes no effort to avoid being hit, the hitting of the batter is

disregarded. The ball is dead immediately and is a strike or ball depending on location of
the pitch.
​

​

Note​

​

:

1. It does not matter if the ball strikes the ground before hitting the batter.
2. The batter's hands are not considered part of the bat.
3. If a batter swings and the ball hits his hands which send it into fair or foul territory, the
ball is dead immediately; A strike is called on the batter; and if it is the third strike, the​

batter is out.

​

 

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Lenski, what sanction is that? It's not ASA that's for sure.

 

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Lenski, what sanction is that? It's not ASA that's for sure.

I don't have an ASA book handy but you should be able to find it in the dead ball section of the rule book. This rule does not change by sanction. It is true in baseball, slowpitch, and fastpitch. The hands are never part of the bat, and it is always a dead ball when the batter is struck by the pitch.

Len

 

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Lenski,

This years USSSA, it is Rule 11, Sec 1 and it does read the same. So they spelled it out in USSSA, but that is not the case in ASA.

I have an ASA rule book in front of me and it does not reference it being a dead ball. The only time it references the hands not being part of the bat is when the batter is hit and NOT swinging. This is a legally struck ball in my opinion.

ASA Rule 1 is the only place that directly mentions a dead ball and it simply says: " A ball that is not in play". Not to helpful there. LoL

The only time the rules refer to it as a "Dead Ball" is when the batter does not swing and is HBP.

 

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From http://www.azsoftball.org/misc/2006/Misc/05.softball.umpire.rulebook.pdf

Page 221 - ASA umpire rulebook, which I'm guessing is very similar to the regular rulebook.

Dead Ball Situations
Hit by Pitch. In fast pitch, if a batter is hit by a pitched ball, the award is first base, providing an attempt is made to avoid the pitch and provided there was no swing or it was not in the strike zone.
THE HANDS ARE NOT PART OF THE BAT!
Any time the batter is hit by a pitched ball, the ball is DEAD. In slow pitch the ball is dead and no awards are granted.

 

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It was addressed in the ASA rule book around Rule 7 or 8 I believe.

Len

 

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That is the 2006 manual and that does not appear in the 2010. Once again, it only references the hands when not swinging.

 

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It was addressed in the ASA rule book around Rule 7 or 8 I believe.

Len

Len, I have the rule book in front of me and it doesn't refer to it at all, that is why I am looking to get a clear determination. I can only go by what is written in the rules, and not by what everyone thinks is there.

I know I am pretty darn pig-headed and I really do not mind being proven wrong, so somebody give me the rule, sec, etc.. so I can let this go already. LoL

 

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Sorry, didn't notice it said 2006-must have been looking on another link that said 2010. Somebody on another forum said that ASA doesn't publish the rule books online, although another person mention you may be able to get it from a 3rd party, and I don't have a physical copy of the 2010 rule book. I'm sure somebody has the answer. It would be good to know what the rule is; wouldn't want this to come up during an important game

 

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Bretman, I can't believe I am going to say this but "I disagree" with you on this. Can you tell me where to find the ASA rule that says the ball is immediately dead every time a it hits a batter? I cannot seem to find it. I do find that this does not qualify as an illegally hit ball, that it does not qualify as HBP and that the batter becomes a batter-runner when they hit a legally hit fair ball.

You'll just have to trust me!

Seriously, see ASA rule 7-4-H: A strike is called by the umpire...for each pitched ball swung at and missed which touches any part of the batter.

Near the end of that section, see the listed "EFFECT". It reads: The ball is dead and each runner must return their base.

Also see rule 8-1-F: The batter becomes a batter-runner (with the ability to advance to first base)...when a pitched ball NOT SWUNG AT nor called a strike touches any part of the batter's person including the hands or clothing. So, if she does swing, that eliminates any base award for being hit by the pitch.

At the end of that section, it repeats AGAIN that the batter's hands are NOT part of the bat.

This is one rule that is universally common to ALL baseball and softball rule sets.