Here is one for all you umpires

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We start an ininng with our 2 hitter, our 2,3,4,and 5 hitters all reach base. Our 6th hitter is our catcher and she also reaches base. We then courtesy run our last out, leadoff hitter from prev inning (we have no subs 10 on the team and we are using one to hit for the pitcher) our 7 and 8 hitters make an out. So we have 2 down runners on 2nd and 3rd. The courtesy runner is on 2nd base. The problem was she is also on deck. We tell the umpire our on deck hitter is on second base. The game is stopped and the question the arose... What do you do? Give me your answers and I'll tell you what happened. And this was at NSA A Nationals in Rock Hill...

 

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AWAHL I am afraid to see the answer since I was just looking thru the rulebook and that scenario is not addressed at all not even in the case studies.

Please tell me there were no ghost runners.

My only guess, and this is on the fly without really thinking the scenarios out, would be that perhaps they went to the out before your courtesy runners slot in the line up.

Somehow I get the sense this might get ugly.

 

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I just learned this two weeks ago from a young coach who read the entire rule book. You skip the batter (courtesy runner) and go to the next batter in the lineup.

Am I right?

 

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Re enter the catcher to run for herself.

 

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My guess would be an out for the catcher. So what happened?

 

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It was top of 7 and we were up 6 runs, after at least a 25-30 minute delay, phone calls, arguments from the other coach that we should for some reason be penalized for following the rules we felt confident we were going to win, we put the the original courtesy runner back on base and before the next pitch left early for an out. The reason we did this was because their coach had protest written all over his face, our pitcher who had been veery successful was sitting in the 95 degree dugout so we bit the bullet.

Now the umps and the NSA honcho's who were there had told us that we should go the the runner before, we were not sure that this was right, after reading the rulebook later that night page 120 of the 2007 NSA rulebook states if any batters turn in the order comes up and they are on base they should be skipped and the next batter in the lineup should hit with no penalty.

By the way we got them out in the bottom of the 7th in 4 pitches. Only in softball LOL. Anyway if this strange situation ever comes up now you'll know what to do.

 

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That's a good example of the unexpected consequences you can have when you tinker with the standard line-up and substitution rules. Unless every possibility is covered in black-and-white, there can be all sorts of odd things happen with courtesy runners or, even more so, continuous batting orders.

I don't work NSA games, but do have a copy of their rule book.

Rule 4-6 covering courtesy runners seems to say that you could go back to previous outs in the batting order to get the next legal courtesy runner. But that rule is addressing which player may be inserted as a courtesy runner in the first place, not finding another CR if your present CR is already on base and scheduled to bat.

Rule 7-3 is the rule you would follow after a batting out of order violation, where the next scheduled proper batter is already on base. It seems to generally fit your situation, but I don't think that is the scenario this rule was designed to address.

Either way, I can't see your team being penalized here because you have not violated any rules. You are just the victim of a strange rule quirk that was probably never imagined when the CR rules were written.

Personally, I like rule 10-1. That's in the "Umpire" section. You know...the part that nobody ever reads! There you will find that: "The plate umpire shall have the authority to rule on any situation not specifically covered by these rules".

This is one of the rare situations that is not directly covered by a specific rule. The plate umpire would be free to come up with any reasonable solution to remedy this glitch. Unless NSA were to issue a specific ruling to the contrary, the solution under rule 7-3 would seem to be the best one, even though that rule most likely wasn't written to cover this situation.

The best thing about rule 10-1 is that whatever the umpire comes up with can never be the "wrong" answer, unless he picks a solution that is contrary to some point already covered within the rule book. The other coach could protest all he wants, but unless he can prove that a specific rule has been violated, his protest would not be a valid one.

 

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"page 120 of the 2007 NSA rulebook states if any batters turn in the order comes up and they are on base they should be skipped and the next batter in the lineup should hit with no penalty."

I was right!! I was told this by a college student who coaches a summer travel team of 12U girls. That is impressive for a young coach to read the entire rule book to make sure she was doing her best at coaching.

 

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Luvthegame, I think Bretman is correct in that the rule on page 120 fit the situation perfect but it was in the section under batting. I think during the rules meetings, they would add an addendum to the courtesy runner rule in that section of the rulebook if this was truly what the intent of rule 7-3 was meant to be.

I would lay cash that this rule is looked at and the scenario is discussed during the fastpitch rule committee meetings at this years convention.

 

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Interesting. I've had this situation happen a few times in games I've called but never had it turn ugly. We've always just removed the runner and replaced her with the previous out. I never cared for NSA's CR rule with last out.

 

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You know, Matt, now that I think about it I kind of like that version better than skipping over the girl who is on base.

Suppose the CR already on base is your best hitter. If you skip her turn at-bat, the offense is being put at a disadvantage through no fault of their own. Simply replacing her with the next available CR seems to best fit the spirit and intent of the rule.

Rule 7-3 is in place to cover a batting-out-of-order violation. In that case, the offense has committed a violation of the rules and if their hitter is skipped they have put themselves in that position.

It will be interesting to see if NSA does address this as Mike has suggested.

The standard rules of softball covering line-ups, substitutions and re-entry ensure that dilemas like this can't happen. Here's another example of a quirk that can come up when you tinker with those standard rules:

Some leagues will use a continuous batting order, where you bat the entire line-up, instead of the standard nine. What do you do if a batter is at-bat, say the count is 2-2, and the batter is injured and cannot complete her at-bat?

Under standard rules, you put in a sub and the sub assumes the 2-2 count. With the CBO rule, technically there are no subs because everybody is already in the line-up!

You could simply skip the injured batter and send up the next one with a fresh 0-0 count. But that isn't fair to the pitcher who had maybe thrown some quality pitches and was on the verge of a strikeout. It also creates the loophole of a weaker hitter, maybe the last in the batting order, "faking" an injury and putting a better hitter, the lead-off-batter, at the plate.

You could have the next batter in the line-up step in and assume the count of the injured batter. But that isn't fair to the hitter who might come to the plate with two strikes already on her.

Another possibility is declaring the injured batter out, but that gives the defense an out that they didn't really earn.

Over the years I have seen different leagues that might handle this any of those three different ways. They each had anticipated this and written a league rule to cover it. Actually, two of the leagues didn't anticipate it at first, had this situation come up in a game and cause an argument, then wrote their rule after-the-fact.

And that is the worst case to have, similar to the NSA courtesy runner dilema- to have one of these odd-ball situations come up and not have a specific rule to cover it!

 

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Maybe ASA has this rule right that the courtesy runner has to be a player that is not in the game. That would have avoided a lot of wasted time.

 

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a few years ago this happened to our team and the opposing coach got out the rule book and are coach and courtesy runner were ejected from the game for an illegal something or other....playing in n.s.a. tourny

 

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The NSA rule for inserting the wrong courtesy runner has the same penalty as using an illegal player. Both the illegal player and the head coach are to be ejected.

Personally, I don't like ejecting a player for a mistake a coach made. Coaches are supposed to know the substituton rules. Players are usually just kids following their coach's orders.

But, if that's the rule, then that's the rule...

 

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The player on second base was not the wrong player. She was the last out.

 

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Well, that is a different story then.

But that's all I could come up with based on a description of "ejected for an illegal something or other"! ?

 

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I think this is a case where the spirit of the rule applies---you are allowed a courtesy runner for the pitcher and if a runner gets "stuck" on bases like this one was, then you put in another substitute courtesy runner and give the girl her chance at bat. For the other coach to get technical about this just shows a win at any cost type attitude and while that might have a place in professional sports, I just can't see it applying to any youth sport. Winning a softball game on a technicality when you are getting beat fair and square isn't my idea of winning. On the other hand, when there is an unfair advantage like using an overage player, then a protest is a viable option.

 

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The CR rule has carried over into the slow-pitch game as well. The one difference, it has to be a player in the line up. If you use a bench player, it is now a substitute.

You should try to enforce this rule in co-ed. It has to be a female runner for another female. If they bat a 10 player line up, you can easily have problems with the last out being on deck or on the bases already.

 

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Overage players?? Come on TD, that is just a technicality. Rules are written for a reason. Following the letter of the law takes out people difference of what the spirit means. Usually people will take the "spirit" and twist it to their advantage.
If that is how the NSA rule is written, it should give the consequence of what happens when the courtesy runner is on base and due up to bat. Personally, I like the ASA rule... clear cut without confusion.

 

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Sorry, but this is gonna be a vague post until I can find my rule book. The rule book used in Ohio High School games states that if there is no available substitute when the runner comes to bat then she is out. Don't remember the specifics, so the rule may have been referring to a pinch runner, but will list the specific rule once I find the rule book I took to our last tournament. Still unpacking from our end of the year tournament.