Pitching and Pitchers Discussion How much should a 10u/12u pitcher be throwing per weekend ?

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I understand there might not be an exact answer but maybe some agreement on how much is too much ? I'm talking in season , live action games . say you average 5-6 games a weekend , maybe even 7 sometimes . Is 2 on sat and 2 on sun too much ? Is it wrong to throw the same kid all 6 games ? ( I think so ) . Is each kid so different that there cant be an agreed upon limit ? I'm going to have to make that desicion soon and dont quite have a firm answer . My gut feeling is dont over do it . No need to over work a 10-12u thrower . No one is recruiting Suzie at 11 or 12 and throwing 4 a weekend is more than enough work . Am I off base ?
 
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Last year we used 3 pitchers at the 10u level. We tried to match so each kid threw 1 game on Saturday, but then we usually used 2 on Sunday, our best threw one of the early games and then the championship game.
 
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ManDan is right to be concerned and should trust his gut feeling. Here is a link to age-specific guidelines for softball pitchers that were developed based on several studies, an MD, a PT and a coach - Softball Injury Prevention. Published medical guidelines are typically more conservative than people want to follow, but they are useful in providing a baseline for determining risk and their structure also illuminates factors that should be considered (e.g. max/day, consecutive days, rest).

A team should have at least 2 pitchers that can pitch bracket games and share the load. If your team doesn't have a solid #2 at the start of the year, the coach should make developing the #2 a high priority to avoid overusing the #1. A good pitcher doesn't have to strike out a lot of batters - they just need to minimize free passes and keep the hitters from teeing off so the defense can get them out.

Some other thoughts for coaches and parents:

- Don't be fooled into a false sense of security by pitchers not experiencing physical discomfort after pitching a heavy load. A lot of damage happens before surrounding tissues become inflamed to feel something is wrong.

- Where they feel discomfort may not be the root source of the problem. For example, underdeveloped muscles between and below the shoulder blades will allow them to move too much and the discomfort is often felt on the opposite side. A good sports medicine professional can identify the real problem so you don't just treat the symptom.
 
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lot of viewers , not many takers .. lol

I'll bite MD- I would guess it's obvious. How many young teams would make it 6 or 7 games if they didn't ride one girl? We seen a few teams we wondered about recently. Our game plan is to get our pitchers as much valuable experience as possible now so we can go with a true rotation this summer.
 
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My sense is that no matter the age, pitchers shouldn't generally be pitching more than 2 games (approximately 14 innings) in a day. My DD pitched a fair amount of doubleheaders in college especially her sophomore year and, while every pitcher is different, she was sore and exhausted on those days, and often was looking at facing the same possibility the next day, not giving her enough time to fully recover. Yes, in isolated cases I think they can get by with more innings, but I think it is very taxing on not only the arm, but also their legs and even mentally as well. Those travel teams that play in the types of tourneys where you might play 6 or 7 games in a day more than once a year or so especially in the summer (e.g., large showcase tourneys, nationals, etc.) should be carrying 3 pitchers, and figuring out ways to balance the workload.
 
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Agree coachjwb. 16 year old teams should have 3 pitchers but they need to know their roll as well. 14u should as well in my opinion. As a coach it is not easy to find three pitchers along with parents that understand you need three for several different reasons.
 
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My sense is that no matter the age, pitchers shouldn't generally be pitching more than 2 games (approximately 14 innings) in a day. My DD pitched a fair amount of doubleheaders in college especially her sophomore year and, while every pitcher is different, she was sore and exhausted on those days, and often was looking at facing the same possibility the next day, not giving her enough time to fully recover. Yes, in isolated cases I think they can get by with more innings, but I think it is very taxing on not only the arm, but also their legs and even mentally as well. Those travel teams that play in the types of tourneys where you might play 6 or 7 games in a day more than once a year or so especially in the summer (e.g., large showcase tourneys, nationals, etc.) should be carrying 3 pitchers, and figuring out ways to balance the workload.

Agree with you Jeff, but wouldn't it be better to limit based on pitches thrown, not necessarily innings?
 
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This is very simple. Don't hurt your kids (even for a championship) The practice rhythm for getting stronger is clearly; work/rest; work/rest; etc... it is NOT work/work/work/work/work till it breaks then go to rehab. (sometime read 'Play Till it Hurts')

A really good 10U team that is playing 7 games in a weekend will need at least 4 pitchers. A well pitched 10U game could have some 150 Pitches thrown, (this is a wide variable and ignores pre-game warm ups and between inning throws). This means that a typical team would throw over 1,000 pitches in a weekend to get to the championships. If you have 4 pitchers that would be 250 each, over 3 days would be about 80 each day; with three pitchers, that would be 330 each and two pitchers is to terrifying to contemplate.

The pitching motion is not free. It exacts a penalty each time the arm is swung violently around a full circle and a half. Most 10U pitchers can recover from the 80 pitches/day pace and be just as strong at the end of the weekend. A 10U kid who has thrown 150 pitches for 3 days will not be capable of throwing much the next week in practice and may not recover before the next tournament. You must adjust your child's pace to her ability and for God's sake just this once underestimate it. Do not get a team with only two pitchers. Pay attention when she complains of aches and pains or just plain tired. (an 18U may be able to throw the 150 and still be strong, but maybe not)

I know that there are a few pitchers in the Women's College World Series that have pitched every game of the playoff run. Remember that these players are the best in world, in phenomenal shape with a horde of coaches, trainers and medical personal watching over them. This is not dd's situation, she just has you.

Your dd is 10U; don't hurt her and don't let a coach hurt her, keep the pitch count down and pay attention to what her body tells you and certainly what she tells you. IF she gets hurt she'll be out for a year to get back to square one. It is all so avoidable if adults would be adults and just pay attention.
 
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OK, here it goes -- First, our dd is a pitcher now entering 18U. We've learned a few hard lessons. The biggest one -- don't rely on the girls to tell you if they hurt or are sore. Watch her, if she's doing or moving differently than normal, even if it is just a slight difference, chances are she's hurting and is adjusting so she can keep playing. These girls are tougher than nails and will do anything to stay on the field. One of our dd's teammates played the whole year with a broken wrist (throwing side) and was a pitcher as well. She just kept wrapping it with athletic tape and insisted it was "just a little sore."

Our dd has gone though rehab for three different injuries in the last 5 years, and we've taken her to nationally respected youth sports medicine people. They have told us the following: young pitchers 13U and younger should never pitch more than 80 to 100 pitches a day and never 3 days in a row. As the girl's bodies mature and get tougher they can go longer.

Our dd's first year of pitching fulltime was 14U. Several of the pitchers fell through, and the dd ended up the primary pitcher. The defense wasn't that good either, so she regularly had games with 150+ pitches. (one inning that defense gave up 11 outs and 80 pitches). The result was an overuse injury to her back -- compressed disc. The injury happened in late June, and it wasn't diagnosed until November after fall ball. She played with it, thinking it was just a sore back muscle.

If you are a pitcher's mom or dad, never allow your dd to be placed in that position. Each team should have at least 3 pitchers. Don't look for a team where your girl will be the No.1. Every year, our dd started out as the lowest pitcher, but ended the year as the No. 1 because she competed. I was never prouder as a dad than when in her 1st year of 16U she joined a team with a dominant No.1 pitcher. Halfway through the season, the other girl told her, "I'm a good pitcher, but we always win when you're in the circle."

Through it all, she's learned to listen to her body, works on getting warmed up properly, and knows what will happen if she isn't properly loose. But until you can trust your dd to know that, watch her. If you don't, chances are nobody else will and that includes most coaches.

In the old days, coaches would find one horse and ride it all tournament and all season. It doesn't work that way. Even the seemingly indestructable pitchers will break down from overwork, or just not tell anybody.

One of her favorite picthing coaches told her, "It shouldn't hurt to pitch. If it does, something's wrong."

Sorry for the sermon.
 
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Andrew ... yes, agree that pitches is a better measure than innings, but innings is just easier to keep track of and I think can be used as a general rule. Of course, most good coaches are going to track the number of pitches their pitchers are throwing, but we also know that many coaches don't. I have a lot of pitching stats from over the years and, other than at the younger ages on average or below average teams, you can usually figure about 15-16 pitches per inning as an average.
 
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Andrew ... yes, agree that pitches is a better measure than innings, but innings is just easier to keep track of and I think can be used as a general rule. Of course, most good coaches are going to track the number of pitches their pitchers are throwing, but we also know that many coaches don't. I have a lot of pitching stats from over the years and, other than at the younger ages on average or below average teams, you can usually figure about 15-16 pitches per inning as an average.

It makes is a lot easier if you are using a scoring app like iScore.
 
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Our dd has gone though rehab for three different injuries in the last 5 years, and we've taken her to nationally respected youth sports medicine people. They have told us the following: young pitchers 13U and younger should never pitch more than 80 to 100 pitches a day and never 3 days in a row. As the girl's bodies mature and get tougher they can go longer.
Sounds like the guidelines in the link I provided -

Maximum Pitch Counts
Age
Pitches / Game
Pitches/Day Days 1 & 2
Pitches/Day Day 3
8 - 10
50
80
10 - 12
65
95
13 - 14
80
115
80
15 - over
100
140
100

Rest periods

Once girls begin to play competitively, they often play two games per day on two or three consecutive days. Two days of rest for pitchers is essential to prevent injuries. Additional guidelines include:

Girls < 12 years - only 2 days of consecutive pitching
Girls > 13 years - only 3 days of consecutive pitching

Rest means no live pitches, including batting practice. Pitchers may need to ?loosen up? with a flexibility routine on the second rest day and can participate in hitting and field drills.
 
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good info and solid opinions but doesnt seem to match reality out there in Buckeye land. Most pitchers are throwing way too much. I've got 4-5 that will see time in the circle this season.
 
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good info and solid opinions but doesnt seem to match reality out there in Buckeye land. Most pitchers are throwing way too much. I've got 4-5 that will see time in the circle this season.

Dan, I understand what you are trying to do, but most teams can only keep at most 2 pitchers happy. Pitchers parents are unique and they want to see them get as much mound time as possible. There is a fine line that a coach must straddle. I would assume some of the bigger orgs like Beverly Bandits and the powerhouse teams out west can say take it or leave it, but I don't see it happening in Ohio as pitchers parents have a lot of control. A good pitcher will have no issues finding another team that will increase her pitching time.
 
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Of course, most good coaches are going to track the number of pitches their pitchers are throwing,

and a lot of coaches just let the pitcher fire away until she gives up three doubles in a row, then yank her. Which, of course, is too late.

I used to be one of those geeky fathers in the stands using the ol' pitch-count clicker. Until I realized that the coaches would be indifferent to my numbers even if I were to bring it to their attention...
 
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Oh I didnt mean I'm going with a MLB 5 man rotation .. LOL ! I meant I've got 5 who work on pitching at least some. I've got 2 dedicated travel ball pitchers who go to private instructors and will pull the majority of the innings .
 

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