Interesting Play...Good Defense or Bad Coaching?

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Had this the other day In the PONY National in Warren...
One out, R1 on 3rd, R2 on 1st. I don't remember the score or which team was batting. First pitch to bat, she squares and pulls back the bat takes a strike. #rd base coach has a few words to R2 about paying attention. Next pitch, same deal from batter, but defense pitches out. R2 starts to 2nd, F2 throws to F6. R1 breaks to home on the throw. Obviously, the defense was willing to give up the run to get the out and empty the bases, R2 is 3/4 to second when the #rd base coach yells "Stop, Back!" Well, R2 kept going to 2nd and is tagged out, R1 is all but home when she hears the coach. She stops and heads back to 3rd. You guessed it, F6 throws to F5 for the tag and an inning ending DP.

My only explanation to myself was the offense must have thought there were 2 outs. By the way, next pitch, batter doubled.

 

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Re: Interesting Play...Good Defense or Bad Coachin

I think I'm reading this right, but not sure. It sounds like the third base coach just assumed (like so many do) that the defense was just going to give R2 second base. When he saw that wasn't true, he yelled at her to go back and R1 thought he was talking to her. Now why R1, who is just about to score an uncontested run, would ever think the coach would be telling her to come back is beyond me. That is what we get when we teach girls to act like robots and do nothing except what we coaches tell them to do.
They don't learn to think for themselves or any baserunning instincts at all.

Good for the team on defense in not just giving the other team second base. With no outs, it's usually a good play to take the easy out if the offense is going to give it to you and to let the run on third score. This is especially true if the defense doesn't have a dominating pitcher in the circle. The girl on third will likely score anyway with no outs, and now you have a girl on second as well if you don't take the out, and she'll usually score, too. Most coaches simply don't know when to cut their losses and will let an inning go on and on and on, all because they are afraid of giving up that one run which is probably going to score anyway.

 

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Re: Interesting Play...Good Defense or Bad Coachin

I agree Joe our catcher has a rocket and gets that out everytime and we've even come close to getting it back home for that out also. Of course the game inning and score is taken in consideration too.

 

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Re: Interesting Play...Good Defense or Bad Coachin

Joe - I had a friendly disagreement with a baseball coach about this exact same situation. He said he would NEVER trade an out for a run on defense. I disagreed, stating basically the logic that you explained. Now, baseball is usually a completely different game strategy wise, but in this situation, I think it's the same. This situation would obviously only apply in early innings with lots of ball to be played. If your team has the bats in the lineup against weak pitching, there's no reason to not get the outs when they're handed to you. You want your team on offense as much as possible.

Good call - I agree with you 100%.

 

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Re: Interesting Play...Good Defense or Bad Coachin

I assume when you say the catcher threw to the SS, the SS was covering second at the time since the coach yelled for the baserunner heading into 2nd to "stop". ?I ask this since it's not uncommon to see the catcher throw to the SS or even to the 2nd baseman who are moving toward home in an attempt to retreive the throw from the catcher and then make the throw to get the runner on 3rd heading home (obviously, the runner would have thought the catcher was throwing down to 2nd). ?On a double-steal attempt like that we teach the runner going to 2nd to run hard about halfway, then jog into 2nd so that if the catcher does throw down they can get into a rundown and allow the runner on 3rd to score. ?If the catcher makes no attempt to throw to 2nd, the runner just jogs on into 2nd base. ? Whatever the situation, a runner should never simply run into a tag. ? ?We also teach our runners on third to take a good lead, but to make sure the ball has passed the pitcher's head before breaking for home. ? Even then, nothing is for sure, but of course the pressure is on the defense to first make a good catch and then make a good throw back to home. ?
Joe, good point about teaching our players to be smart baserunners and not just "robots". ?You do have to let them know you trust them though if you want them to act on their instincts. ?It's just like having a runner on third with a passed ball. ?The runner has to know their own ability and trust their instincts when trying to score on a passed ball. ?In most cases, by the time the 3rd base coach tells the runner to break for home and the runner reacts, it's too late. ?Teach them what they need to know and then let them play the game. ?JMHO

 

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Re: Interesting Play...Good Defense or Bad Coachin

loncor, you're all over it. You can't beat a player that has good base running instincts. I teach the girls what to look for and they have to react. You're absolutely right, if you have to tell them to go, it's probably too late. I have that situation on my team. I have one extremely fast sprinter who hasn't quite yet developed her base running skills as it applies to recognizing opportunities whose been thrown out and I have another who may be my 2nd slowest runner who was only thrown out once this year on what I call instant reaction plays. The slower runner has great recognition ability and reacts.
AS FOR THE ROBOT COMMENT,......A coach that I have the greatest respect for told me a long time ago,"If you have to tell them what to do on every play, all they learn is that you're going to tell them what to do". Put the game in the girls hands and minds.

 

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Re: Interesting Play...Good Defense or Bad Coachin

The original post tells how the runner from 3rd reacted to the 3rd base coaches voice and reminded me of what happened to me twice this year over the course of our 7 tournaments that has never happened to me before.
Both situations were identical. We had a runner at 2nd with less than 2 outs. A fly ball was hit well into fairly deep Right Center. Hit well enough to advance the runner on the catch, but not well enough to not have the runner tag up. Both times it looked as the Center fielder may get to it. Well neither one was caught, I'm now bringing the runner hard and as she approaches 3rd I waving her through and telling her go go go. In both cases the hitter was flying from contact and fast approaching 2nd and looking to me for instructions. I'd put my hands up to stop her but MISTAKENLY verbalized STOP STOP STOP. Well because the runner from 2nd got a late jump waiting for me to determine if that ball was going to be caught, they were barely by me at 3rd and heard me telling the hitter to STOP, so they stopped and returned to 3rd. LESSON LEARNED to me, stick with the visual signals to the trailing runner.