Is there a RULE against...

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Just curious... if this were a college game, would you feel the same? Do you feel different courtesies and "unspoken rules" apply at different age and competition levels? If so, why?

One word.....Professionalism.

All of the younger age coaches, to include HS, are not in coaching full-time. There are some that do take their coaching responsibilities seriously and totally understand the ramifications of their actions, on and off the field, but most don't care to take the time.

 

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Just play the damn game, never have and never will worry about the other teams signs. Very rarely have my dd's talked about other teams signs, and when they do, I tell them to worry about their team. Have seen a few threads in the past where grown men are all happy they could steal the signs of another 10u coach. Kind of makes me want to puke. Have your kids go out and play the game with a little pride and integrity and just maybe the other team will too and who says you have to stoop to another sorry teams tactics. Man this touches a nerve with me as you can tell.

If only it were so. The fact is that it's out there and it's not against the rules. Teams must take steps to prevent their signs from being stolen. Anyone who thinks otherwise is living in a dreamworld.

 

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Twinsdad Thank you, Sometimes coaches and parents forget the most important thing. Your team is playing the game - your daughters are playing the game NOT YOU. Your job is to teach them how to play let them discover things on their own then explain how to become better. There is a reason we are on the outside of the lines and they are on the inside. If you have done your job you team will not need that level of instruction.

10 Year Coach 16 year member of parenthood life time student of the game.
Matt Burk
Ohio Hurricanes

 

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The 3rd basemen coach calling out pitches based on where the catcher is lined up without a sign is actually pretty darn funny considering a lot of pitches do not go where the catcher is set up for example; a screwball and curve is set up no where near where it suppose to go.:lmao:

Your quality coaches will not do this w/o sign for that simple reason, as well as being looked at as a newbie.:lmao:

 

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Twinsdad:

Are you really saying that if a third base player can pick up the bunt sign, she should just ignore that facet of the game? How is that any different than a hitter picking up a "tell" on a change-up pitch or for that matter any other pitch? Why does this make you so sick to your stomach? I guess I'm really confused why you would think players shouldn't be looking for these things and why you think a player who does pay attention to such things lacks "integrity"?

 

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Twinsdad:

Are you really saying that if a third base player can pick up the bunt sign, she should just ignore that facet of the game? How is that any different than a hitter picking up a "tell" on a change-up pitch or for that matter any other pitch? Why does this make you so sick to your stomach? I guess I'm really confused why you would think players shouldn't be looking for these things and why you think a player who does pay attention to such things lacks "integrity"?

I have to kind of agree with this. Don't we want our pitchers and catchers to read a batter's stance in the box, how they are holding their bat, etc... To try and throw them off with the pitches they choose? Isn't this kind of the same thing?

I think that the PLAYERS should be picking up the "signs" of things in game situations. It keeps their heads in the game at the very least, but makes them a much smarter ball player, IMHO.

Coaches, and parents should be involved in encouraging the players, NOT throwing signs etc. into the situation. Let the kids play and learn.

 

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Teaching catchers, pitchers, and infielders how to read a batter is an integral part of the game just as it is for a batter to read the defense.

How a coach goes about teaching and reinforcing it is what gets people's dander up. To blantantly shout out which pitch is coming is not teaching a batter to think and pay attention the entire game.

With today's endless data, there are more scouting reports on batters and pitchers than we know what to do with. Each kid has her own tells about how she hits. Where a slapper starts in the box, how she holds the bat each time. Infielders armed with this info has a better chance of recording an out than those that do not have the info.

But.....it is a two-way street. Batters have their tells and so do pitchers, or pitch calling tendencies. Batter armed with this data are now playing a cat-and-mouse game with the pitcher and whoever is calling pitches. The batter will show one stance in the box and then shift to another stance after the pitch is called. It is part of the game. The game within the game, so to speak.

As for coaches yelling out what is coming. IMHO, calling which pitch is coming is a no-no. You are actually hindering the learning process.

Calling that the bunt is coming in an obvious bunt situation is ok. Yelling for your defense to check the batters position is ok. I feel that this is ok because you are asking the girls to look at a situation, evaluate, and then react.

I love to teach girls the thinking part of the game. Observe and learn. We have been harping on the girls in the dugout to pay attention during the game, even if you are not on the field. Simple stuff like if you are a left-handed batter, what pitches did another lefty get while at the plate, so on and so forth. While the team was out on the field on defense, one of the non-starters came up to me and said "That batter cannot hit a high pitch with the swing that she has." This girl is the back-up catcher and she was actually evaluating the batter's swings. That is what I am after, to see the girls achieve a higher intellectual level of the game. If I can teach all of the girls on a team to think and make all of the decisions, then I can just get a lounge chair and sit in the shade.

But, it is all in how you go about doing it.

 

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We have played many teams that the runner on second does this.

 

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Wvanalmsick is absolutely right. Teach the girls how to learn all of the nuances. Do it at practices, between innings, after games, etc... Taking the shortcut, and going "Bush League" during games just makes it ugly for everyone involved.

 

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Teaching catchers, pitchers, and infielders how to read a batter is an integral part of the game just as it is for a batter to read the defense.

How a coach goes about teaching and reinforcing it is what gets people's dander up. To blantantly shout out which pitch is coming is not teaching a batter to think and pay attention the entire game.

With today's endless data, there are more scouting reports on batters and pitchers than we know what to do with. Each kid has her own tells about how she hits. Where a slapper starts in the box, how she holds the bat each time. Infielders armed with this info has a better chance of recording an out than those that do not have the info.

But.....it is a two-way street. Batters have their tells and so do pitchers, or pitch calling tendencies. Batter armed with this data are now playing a cat-and-mouse game with the pitcher and whoever is calling pitches. The batter will show one stance in the box and then shift to another stance after the pitch is called. It is part of the game. The game within the game, so to speak.

As for coaches yelling out what is coming. IMHO, calling which pitch is coming is a no-no. You are actually hindering the learning process.

Calling that the bunt is coming in an obvious bunt situation is ok. Yelling for your defense to check the batters position is ok. I feel that this is ok because you are asking the girls to look at a situation, evaluate, and then react.

I love to teach girls the thinking part of the game. Observe and learn. We have been harping on the girls in the dugout to pay attention during the game, even if you are not on the field. Simple stuff like if you are a left-handed batter, what pitches did another lefty get while at the plate, so on and so forth. While the team was out on the field on defense, one of the non-starters came up to me and said "That batter cannot hit a high pitch with the swing that she has." This girl is the back-up catcher and she was actually evaluating the batter's swings. That is what I am after, to see the girls achieve a higher intellectual level of the game. If I can teach all of the girls on a team to think and make all of the decisions, then I can just get a lounge chair and sit in the shade.

But, it is all in how you go about doing it.

Post of the year.

I talk to my DDs (3) all the time about seeing all of this on their own.

IMO what separates the good from the best are the ones that can get that 1% advantage. And you get it by being a student. Learning if (HOW) the pitcher is tipping her pitches(they all tip pitches). Watching the batter in the box..........where is she standing? How are her hands..........often you do not even need to know the sign at 12U and below.........the coach and players communicate the play by their body language.

To be honest there is almost no way a player even hears the yells of California....Florida.......seriously it is sooooooo stupid.

I am indifferent on the bunting thing. If the DDs need to be told to charge when a girls squares to bunt we have other issues..........

My 12U daughter has told me that during the game she pretty much blocks everything out. That the she does not hear the "insane parents" during the game.

 

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Just to be clear, I'm talking about players, teams, and coaches (in the dugout or on base) paying attention to the game to see what Bill calls nuances. If I see something while I'm coaching first, you can be sure that I will softly (and out of range of the 1st base player) explain what I've seen to my base-runner.

I agree that calling out pitch location during the pitch is over the top, but I think I feel that way because it comes dangerously close to intentional distraction of the pitcher and to a lesser degree the catcher. The kind of picks and tells that I'm speaking about don't startle or show-up the opposition. If our 3rd base player can read the signs to know whether a bunt has been called, that means she can charge hard on the bunt or protect against the slap or hitting away if the bunt has not been called. The fans just think she made a good play, which in fact she did, aided by her keen observation of what is going on in the game.

 

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We have played many teams that the runner on second does this.

At the high school level, the batters cannot decipher that info and stay focused on the pitcher at the same time. Especially with good catchers who don't give the glove position until the wind-up.

 

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Change the signs every inning and he will screw his batters up royally.

 

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I love it when some one does this to my dd.

If a batter is listening to her coach and trusts him to be right while someone is tossing a ball in at 60MPH; she deserves to hit the ball over the fence. However, The pitcher can shift location very easily and we can change up the signals with the flip of a hand. The coach usually shuts up pretty quick.

A runner on second will try to tip the pitch quite frequently. Again if we can get a couple of free strikes because we bait her into distracting the batter so much the better.

 

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In one game I had last year, the runner on second was calling out catcher position. One time she yelled "OUTSIDE" and the catcher was set up outside and the pitcher threw inside corner and smacked me dead in the chest for the third strike.

Catcher later apologized as she didn't get to it. Big time game ... big time strike out to end the inning and batter leaning over to the outside of the plate and made to look like a fool.

 

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P l u n k

 

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Opposing coach did this at Stingrays last summer at 16U. Was a high profile organization.......just had to shake my head

 

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If you people don't think this happens often you are not paying attention. I hear it from coaches, parents behind the plate, runners on second all picking location and pitches when possible.

I don't like it but the only thing you can do is deal with it, and that doesn't include beatings and plunkings. As some have mentioned it depends on the level of play but there are ways that some have mentioned to counter the issues. Use it against the purpetrators.

 

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Twinsdad:

Are you really saying that if a third base player can pick up the bunt sign, she should just ignore that facet of the game? How is that any different than a hitter picking up a "tell" on a change-up pitch or for that matter any other pitch? Why does this make you so sick to your stomach? I guess I'm really confused why you would think players shouldn't be looking for these things and why you think a player who does pay attention to such things lacks "integrity"?

Just the way I feel, and notice all of your comments are geared toward the players picking these things up. Most of mine were geared towards the coaches and other adults. Must make all of us adults feel real good about ourselves when we force a coach of a 9 or 10 year old to make up signs that a spy couldn't decipher. Hey but it's all about the end result right, by any means possible just win. I believe they call it stealing signs, emphasis on stealing. Usually the words integrity and stealing are not used in the same sentence. Just hope one day your third basemen doesn't get one down her throat because she thought she had the other teams bunt sign.

 

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Just the way I feel, and notice all of your comments are geared toward the players picking these things up. Most of mine were geared towards the coaches and other adults. Must make all of us adults feel real good about ourselves when we force a coach of a 9 or 10 year old to make up signs that a spy couldn't decipher. Hey but it's all about the end result right, by any means possible just win. I believe they call it stealing signs, emphasis on stealing. Usually the words integrity and stealing are not used in the same sentence. Just hope one day your third basemen doesn't get one down her throat because she thought she had the other teams bunt sign.

I agree that at the younger ages, it is very frustrating when another adult has to resort to yelling out what he/she thinks what is coming based on a signal that he/she saw.

But, your last sentence leaves me perplexed. A good third baseman doesn't rely just on an assumed signal. They watch for the batter's position in the batter's box, the position of the hands on the bat, and the position of her feet. When a defensive player is armed with all if this info, then they can react appropriately. These are things that are taught to a player by a coach and reinforced in a game situation and it should be emphasized that they cannot react solely on a signal. Throw in pitch location and speed along with the data that the third baseman has acquired and it will be a pretty well defensed bunt. No one can say if it will be successful but chances are it will be very difficult to reach base or achieve the sacrifice.

Kids need to be taught the tells of a bunt at the younger ages so that they can improve upon those skills as they get older. If they do not improve those skills, well there is the outfield.

But.......proper coaching is they key.