Modified Rules Question for Blue

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While watching some games at tournament this past weekend the TD and I got into a pretty good conversation. At the time I was watching some 10U games and something happened. Since the TD and another ump were sitting with me I decided to inquire about it.

The team batting had girls on 1st & 3rd with 1 out. The girl on first stole 2nd and the catcher made the throw to second. The girl on 3rd scored. The umpire sent her back to 3rd and stated " No Stealing Home ". I asked the TD what his modified rules said and he stated " No Stealing Home ". I told him in my opinion when the defense elected to make the play at second they put the ball in play and it was as good as a batted ball, therefore the girl on 3rd didnt steal. I told him we had played tournaments that stated no stealing home and some that said player on 3rd can only score on a force in or batted ball. In the first one when the defense put the ball in play it was no longer stealing and the second you didnt even try to send th girl.

The ump in the stands agreed that the girl on 3rd should have scored, the ump on the field didnt know for sure how it should have been called and the head ump said " No Stealing Home ". So my question is this, if the defense elects to put the ball in play...is it any longer stealing. So if the TD does not want girls scoring from 3rd his modified rule should read, player on 3rd can only score on a force in or batted ball.

 

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While watching some games at tournament this past weekend the TD and I got into a pretty good conversation. At the time I was watching some 10U games and something happened. Since the TD and another ump were sitting with me I decided to inquire about it.

The team batting had girls on 1st & 3rd with 1 out. The girl on first stole 2nd and the catcher made the throw to second. The girl on 3rd scored. The umpire sent her back to 3rd and stated " No Stealing Home ". I asked the TD what his modified rules said and he stated " No Stealing Home ". I told him in my opinion when the defense elected to make the play at second they put the ball in play and it was as good as a batted ball, therefore the girl on 3rd didnt steal. I told him we had played tournaments that stated no stealing home and some that said player on 3rd can only score on a force in or batted ball. In the first one when the defense put the ball in play it was no longer stealing and the second you didnt even try to send th girl.

The ump in the stands agreed that the girl on 3rd should have scored, the ump on the field didnt know for sure how it should have been called and the head ump said " No Stealing Home ". So my question is this, if the defense elects to put the ball in play...is it any longer stealing. So if the TD does not want girls scoring from 3rd his modified rule should read, player on 3rd can only score on a force in or batted ball.

This is a case of the Right-hand doesn't know what the Left-hand is doing. I officiate mostly H.S. games and the rule for H.S. states:

NFHS 2-55 A stolen base is the advance of a runner to the next base without the aid of a base hit, a putout, a fielding error, a passed ball or a wild pitch.

You are Right! The above situation is clearly not a stolen base and the runner should have scored.

FASTPITCH! Anything else, And you're playing to SLOW!

 

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From the ATEC Scoring Guide:

Credit a stolen base to a runner who advances a base unaided by a safe hit, putout, error, force out, fielder's choice, illegal pitch, base on balls, hit batter, wild pitch, passed ball, interference or obstruction.​

I agree, of course, with Fastpitchblue. It sounds like the special/modified rule wording did not match the intention.

 

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If I remember correctly back to when my dd played 10u ASA tournaments, there was no stealing home, and when teams stole 2nd the defense would go ahead and throw down to second because there were no repercussions if there was a runner on 3rd.

It's been 5 yrs since she played 10u, so I could be wrong.

 

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I'd say stolen base. No different than a runner on third, ball four and advancing to second with no play made...

Now the TD should have had it clear that only advancement on a force or batted ball...

 

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It's been a couple of years since ASA removed the special 10U baserunning rules from their rule book. Of course, as you found out in your tourney, tournaments that do not have national championship ramifications are free to adopt any special rules as they see fit.

When a TD does adopt a special rule, it always helps if he gets everybody on the same page by distributing a list of the rules to the coaches and umpires. Sometimes that happens and sometimes it doesn't. My own experience has been that when it does, it cuts down on a lot of the confusion you might run into during the games.

Realizing that there are a dozen different sanctioning bodies, and that they might have different rules covering baserunning for the younger ages, I'll have to confine my answer to how this used to be handled in ASA games.

Under the old ASA rule, the runner on third would NOT be allowed to advance when the catcher made the throw to second base. Their rule stated that a runner could score only on a batted ball, a walk with the bases loaded, a hit batter with the bases loaded or on an awarded base (for instance, if the catcher threw to third to play on a stealing runner and the ball went out of play).

That does kind of make sense when you consider the reasons for limiting steals in the younger age groups. It recognized the fact that catchers are less-developed at this age, while still encouraging them to make plays on advancing runners. Without this special rule, the runner from third is going to stroll home 99% of the time when the catcher makes a throw down to second. That is the kind of thing the rules were meant to prevent.

Their old rule went on to cover every possible scenario relating to 10U runners advancing, such as advancing only one base on steal attempts, being liable to be put out if advancing beyong the one entitled base, batters not being allowed to advance on uncaught third strikes, returning runners to previous bases if they did advance beyond the one entitled base and prohibiting steals of home.

So, there was a lot more to the old rule than just "no stealing home". By modifying one rule about how and when a runner can score, you affect a host of other rules that relate to baserunning. The old ASA "covered all the bases", so to speak. The old rule, by covering all the possible "what if" plays, took up about 3/4 of an entire page in the rule book.

If a TD wants to incorporate these rules he can. But if his instruction to the teams and umpires is nothing more than "no stealing home", he is leaving some pretty big grey areas and loopholes in how the rule would be enforced!

 

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So Bret, I did remember it right?? dd played 10u in 2004.

 

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Yep, it sounds like you remembered!

If my own memory is correct, ASA first changed their 10U baserunning rules in 2007. That year, they made the restrictions apply only to 10U "B" teams, instead of all 10U teams. Then in 2008 they eliminated these rules entirely.

I haven't done very many 10U games in awhile, but do rememeber this play from about five years ago at a 10U tournament:

A runner stole third base, beating the throw from F2. As F5 threw the ball back to F1, it bounced off her glove and rolled toward home. The catcher picked up the ball and fired it back to the pitcher. It went over the pitcher's head and into centerfield. F8 retrieved the ball and threw it toward the pitcher. The ball went over her head again, through the backstop and out of play.

As the plate umpire, I awarded the runner on third home since an awarded base was one of the ways a runner could score.

The defensive coach went nuts, screaming, "She can't steal home!". Even after explaining it to him- that it wasn't a "steal", it was a base award for the out of play throw- he still was going crazy and wanted the TD to come over and make a ruling. Almost got himself tossed from the game arguing about this.

While I still work a few 10U games a year in a pinch, I think that a steady diet of these games would drive me crazy! Not to downplay the efforts of the players- I think it's great that young kids are out there trying and learning the game. But 10U games often present the "perfect storm" of inexperienced players, coaches, fans and umpires that can make for a long day at the ballpark!

 

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I agree with most everyone.............almost! The tournaments we played that stated no player on 3rd may score unless forced in or on a batted ball is the correct way to state the modified rule, like the old ASA rule stated. The reason they changed the rule to state such is the example that I gave. When the catcher chooses to put the ball in play it becomes a live ball.

Thanks for everyone's input................

 

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If that's their rule, then that's their rule. But it would be something specific to that particular league or tournament, not something you will find spelled out in any "official" rule book.

There again, if that's the way they want this called in their games, they should make some effort to communicate their "special" rules to the coaches and umpires. Otherwise, enforcement of that rule is going to be a real crapshoot!

 

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That was the problem with 10U. Each tourney had a different set of rules. We always threw to second base, because it didn't matter. Same on third. You couldn't score from third unless what diamondxprs stated. This took away the pass ball and out of play situation that bretman stated. I was glad to see them change and play the same as everyone else.

 

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When my DD played rec at 10U - they used USSSA rules with the modification of no stealing home. I don't recall how they worded the modified rule, but don't recall it being very detailed. In this case, we used it to our advantage to throw to 1st or 2nd anytime there was a runner on 3rd - as we didn't care if there was an overthrow or not. Only way the runner on 3rd could steal was if an attempt was made at 3rd.

Only rules interpretation we ever ran up against was "what is an attempt?". We had one umpire and coach who considered a "pump fake" throw an "attempt". All others only considered it an attempt if the ball was actually thrown.

This was in the SOGFSA org.

My DD subbed for a travel team in an ASA tournament halfway through the season at 10U. She'd never played in a game where stealing of home was permitted. She's a pitcher. You can imagine what happens.... Even though we tried to prepare her for it, you can't change habits that quickly. Runner on 3rd... walks the batter and she heads to first and rounds it for second.... HOOK, LINE and SINKER!

 

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I called the TD that prompted me to ask the question and told him about this thread. We talked a little more and he finally came around.His first statement was,"your just stretching the rules on me". I asked him if the rule book he was under stated 10U couldnt steal home? His answer no it does not and that is why it was a modified rule. My next question to him was, what does the book say about a ball put in play by the defense, he stated that the book says it becomes a live ball. What does it say about a fair batted ball by the offense, it is a live ball. His light bulb finally came on about this time and his next statement was the one I was looking for, Starting with my tournament this summer I'm going to let the 10U group play the same rules as everyone else. ;& One down and so many more to go. There are already so many jumps from 10U to 12U that we dont need to add special rules in.

As for the pump fake from the catcher I would have to let Blue answer that. Im not sure if that counts as the defense putting the ball into play or not.

 

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So are you saying you want the no steal at 10u to go away? Please, 1/3 of the girls won't be playing five years from now anyway, so don't get caught up in all the excitement at 10U

The rule is to get the girls to learn how to make the throws down to the bags at that age and nothing more.....

 

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diamondxprs,

While I do applaud your efforts to understand and clarify the rules, I would also have to say that your logic and reasoning for justifying this rule are flawed.

These following statements simply are not true, and are certainly not "what the rule book says":

- "My next question to him was, what does the book say about a ball put in play by the defense, he stated that the book says it becomes a live ball."

- "What does it say about a fair batted ball by the offense, it is a live ball."

By the rule book definitions, the ball does not "become live" when the defense makes a play. In fact, the opposite is true! The ball has to already be live before the defense can make a play!

Same with a batted ball. Batting a ball into play does not "make the ball live". The ball must already be live before a pitch can be thrown and before the batter can the pitch.

Instead of these actions "making the ball live", a better line of reasoning might be found in how they relate to "runners advancing with liability to be put out" (covered under rule 8-4).

This is often the problem with "modified" rules. Sometimes, despite the best intentions of the modified rule, they will inadvertantly conflict with a host of other rules in the rule book.

Making the single modification of "no stealing home" fails to address the dozen other rules about how and when runners can advance. That is why the old ASA rule was so darn long- it tried to cover every possible scenario of how runners can normally advance, which related to other entire sections of the rule book.

My suggestion to tournament directors running 10U tournaments would be this:

- Decide up front what your goals are for player development and competetive balance.

- If you want to limit "easy" advances by runners and adjust your games to recognize the skill level of most 10U players and catchers, find a copy of the old ASA rule and adopt it verbatim.

- If that is not your concern, then leave the current rules exactly as they are, without modification.

- If you do decide to modify one rule, make some effort to to figure out what other rules might be affected by the the change. You will usually find that modifying one rule will force you to address or modify several different rules.

- Whichever you decide, put it in writing and distribute it to the coaches and umpires well before they ever hit the field!

 

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Quit your whining Bretman! You know the coaches are always right

 

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Yes, Randy....except when you are coaching your daughter's team!

 

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I've seen some gooooffyyy 10u Tourny rules. I think 10u should steal home and dropped third strike should be live ball regardless of sanctioning body you are playing within that weekend. I now ask every ump what special rules exist outside the scope of the sanctioning body rulebook so I know what to expect during that particular weekend-no surprises. Even with this "pre-game questionairre" I am still surprised quite often. During some USSSA tourney games last year I had different rules at many games within the same tourney.