New USA age cut off for next season?

[Killak]

I am in that exact situation. We have 12 teams in our organization that are (mostly) straight birth year. In a few cases, the team as a whole would need to move up, but the coaches kid *could* now stay down another year with his late year birthday daughter. If the coach stays down though, he is signing on for a season of only USA tourneys next year.

I, too, have reached out to a few USA tourney directors in my area and the feedback is that they may drop USA, and go unsanctioned in order to *not* have to deal with this mixed age issue. If that is the case, then my coach that may have stayed down will not have any local tourneys.

I also run USA tourneys at my park, and I plan to just go unsanctioned next year. Therefore, teams with those late birthday older girls (USA teams who used the new ages) would now *not be eligible to play in my tourneys. It will be interesting to see if I draw fewer teams next year.

I’m trying to figure all this out for what we’ll do next year so I have a question. Why go unsanctioned instead of just stay USA for your tournaments and allow those teams that want to adjust to new age grouping play with their USA roster and those that don’t play with their usssa roster? If a team stays with usssa roster age cutoff then their USA roster will be the same and I doubt they care very much about whether another team went with USA age cutoff for USA tournaments age grouping since the new age cutoff only affects 4 months worth of players.

 

[Passion4theGame]

Anymore Sanctioning doesnt matter to most. You can call directors and get bids for Nationals or just simply sign up.
Level of competition and college exposure would be the 2 top things.
Some of the Best events in the Fall here in Ohio are unsanctioned events.
Some of the Biggest events in Ohio for Summer happen to be NON- sanctioned events.

 

[Killak]

Anymore Sanctioning doesnt matter to most. You can call directors and get bids for Nationals or just simply sign up.
Level of competition and college exposure would be the 2 top things.
Some of the Best events in the Fall here in Ohio are unsanctioned events.
Some of the Biggest events in Ohio for Summer happen to be NON- sanctioned events.

So if you go unsanctioned do you state in your tournament rules you’re following one organizations rules for your tournament? If you don’t list one or the other you could then accept both roster types with no issues correct and then just set out your basic pool play, time limit and tiebreaker rules?

 

[Passion4theGame]

So if you go unsanctioned do you state in your tournament rules you’re following one organizations rules for your tournament? If you don’t list one or the other you could then accept both roster types with no issues correct and then just set out your basic pool play, time limit and tiebreaker rules?

Correct. They will use a rule set for the event. Example: USA softball rules for an event but open roster who you submit before the event starts is who you play with. They will also accept any insurance.

 

[Mike_Craig_-_Ohio USSSA]

Extremely interesting information from Mike Craig. He makes some interesting points about the changes that I had not put much thought into. The equipment thing in-particular is of interest. With only about a month to go before the mad dash for tryouts, organizations may be in a pickle trying to formulate rosters.

I don't do this anymore but I would be interested to hear from others how they plan to host tryouts. There's going to be some girls on the fence due to the conflict. How are you going to decide?

The whole key to this is we didn't start it. USA is walking alone so far on this one. Does that mean we would not discuss making the change at our meeting, of course we will discuss it. The early sentiment I get from our people is why the sudden need to change this birthday age cutoff after it has worked for years and years. I do not remember a time where it wasn't a 12/31 cutoff. I do remember running my first couple of years in the fall where we let teams stay in their previous summer age groups thru the fall. That only lasted maybe one or two fall seasons before NSA back then said get them in their next year's age groups or there will be an insurance issue. USSSA has always been 12/31 since I joined up in fall of 2015 and I would assume they were the same long before my tenure started.

Is there anyone on here who knows if it was ever a different date than 12/31?

 

[daboss]

The whole key to this is we didn't start it. USA is walking alone so far on this one. Does that mean we would not discuss making the change at our meeting, of course we will discuss it. The early sentiment I get from our people is why the sudden need to change this birthday age cutoff after it has worked for years and years. I do not remember a time where it wasn't a 12/31 cutoff. I do remember running my first couple of years in the fall where we let teams stay in their previous summer age groups thru the fall. That only lasted maybe one or two fall seasons before NSA back then said get them in their next year's age groups or there will be an insurance issue. USSSA has always been 12/31 since I joined up in fall of 2015 and I would assume they were the same long before my tenure started.

Is there anyone on here who knows if it was ever a different date than 12/31?

Yes sir, its been years but there was a time when there was no uniform cut-off date for any of the sanctions. I know I'll get it wrong. One was around August. The other I believe was like April or May. One was a spring deadline, one a fall. Gosh it has been forever it seems. Little League seem to have the edge over the sanctions back then but when ASA came on the scene they had to be different. USSSA finally made their way into Ohio and joined the pi**ing match over the turf war. My personal interest was always USSSA for many reasons. Everything about it was user-friendly and we had some really good reps in our area hosting some great tournaments for slowpitch and eventually fastpitch.

 

[daboss]

Yes sir, its been years but there was a time when there was no uniform cut-off date for any of the sanctions. I know I'll get it wrong. One was around August. The other I believe was like April or May. One was a spring deadline, one a fall. Gosh it has been forever it seems. Little League seem to have the edge over the sanctions back then but when ASA came on the scene they had to be different. USSSA finally made their way into Ohio and joined the pi**ing match over the turf war. My personal interest was always USSSA for many reasons. Everything about it was user-friendly and we had some really good reps in our area hosting some great tournaments for slowpitch and eventually fastpitch.

Let me point out I go back to the late 70's - early 80's playing both slowpitch and fastpitch myself and began seriously coaching children in fastpitch by 2000. Before that, I was an assistant coach for little league boys baseball locally in the 1980's. Been a lot of changes. The cut-off dates appeared back then to really fuel the turf war situation and many teams were drawn to USSSA because they had a more open door policy for teams to play in national events. ASA was extremely difficult to qualify. I believe at one point only State champions were eligible to play for a national title within their age group. Same thing with adult slowpitch as well but USSSA began the qualifier format in slowpitch with class separation being A, B, and C classes determined by ability.

 

[Mike_Craig_-_Ohio USSSA]

Let me point out I go back to the late 70's - early 80's playing both slowpitch and fastpitch myself and began seriously coaching children in fastpitch by 2000. Before that, I was an assistant coach for little league boys baseball locally in the 1980's. Been a lot of changes. The cut-off dates appeared back then to really fuel the turf war situation and many teams were drawn to USSSA because they had a more open door policy for teams to play in national events. ASA was extremely difficult to qualify. I believe at one point only State champions were eligible to play for a national title within their age group. Same thing with adult slowpitch as well but USSSA began the qualifier format in slowpitch with class separation being A, B, and C classes determined by ability.

When I started to play slow-pitch seriously in the late 80's and early 90's, USSSA seemed to own the central Ohio area. There could be as many as 4-5 tournaments all within 30-40 miles of each other and all had more than enough teams to make it worth driving to play. Sometimes there would be 2 different ones at Berliner Park based on classification being offered. Or one at Berliner and another in Grove City and another in Springfield and all with 20-24 teams each. The good ole days.....

I jumped in NSA on that side because I actually sat across from the local area director at work and always was involved in SP leagues/tournaments that he ran and eventually umpiring in SP and then directing SP tournaments in the mid 90's. The style of each game used to be so different back then as USSSA was a lower arc/lower scoring like baseball that rewarded good defense and NSA was more like the traditional game of slow-pitch with a much higher arc on the ball, much easier to hit, and usually much higher scoring for those reasons. It used to come down to younger guys right out of baseball preferred USSSA and older guys who had played when ASA was the only tournament sanction enjoyed NSA because it was similar in arc but not as high in the air as ASA used to allow.

ASA still had a presence here in SP too as the local Metro used to be their best event each summer here in mid June. Flash forward almost 30 years and none of them have any market share at all in almost the entire state. ASA dissolved most of their Metro associations when SP began to decline, NSA has pretty much come to a crawl on SP nationally, and USSSA is almost gone other than in Dayton and SW Ohio. I have fell out of touch with that crowd so much that I do not know if they even offer a state tournament in any of those 3 sanctions anymore.

 

[daboss]

When I started to play slow-pitch seriously in the late 80's and early 90's, USSSA seemed to own the central Ohio area. There could be as many as 4-5 tournaments all within 30-40 miles of each other and all had more than enough teams to make it worth driving to play. Sometimes there would be 2 different ones at Berliner Park based on classification being offered. Or one at Berliner and another in Grove City and another in Springfield and all with 20-24 teams each. The good ole days.....

I jumped in NSA on that side because I actually sat across from the local area director at work and always was involved in SP leagues/tournaments that he ran and eventually umpiring in SP and then directing SP tournaments in the mid 90's. The style of each game used to be so different back then as USSSA was a lower arc/lower scoring like baseball that rewarded good defense and NSA was more like the traditional game of slow-pitch with a much higher arc on the ball, much easier to hit, and usually much higher scoring for those reasons. It used to come down to younger guys right out of baseball preferred USSSA and older guys who had played when ASA was the only tournament sanction enjoyed NSA because it was similar in arc but not as high in the air as ASA used to allow.

ASA still had a presence here in SP too as the local Metro used to be their best event each summer here in mid June. Flash forward almost 30 years and none of them have any market share at all in almost the entire state. ASA dissolved most of their Metro associations when SP began to decline, NSA has pretty much come to a crawl on SP nationally, and USSSA is almost gone other than in Dayton and SW Ohio. I have fell out of touch with that crowd so much that I do not know if they even offer a state tournament in any of those 3 sanctions anymore.

You are so right. When you were getting involved I was already getting out of the game. I never played "high level" but was on the roster of a team at the "Stroh's Tournament" in Springfield. The sponsor would pick a couple of local teams to fill the bracket and we got selected a couple times. We got thrown a bone. lol. Heck, I was too old to play by then.

Clark County, Ohio had so many slow pitch teams registered the county REC dept couldn't get them all in their leagues back then. Weekend tournaments were abundant. Now diamonds are left unattended as the only real activity is some co-ed teams playing. Nobody locally is trying to host any fastpitch stuff and locally the number of fastptch teams have declined. People are opt'ing for travel ball beyond a county REC league that will actually finish for the summer in another week.

I wish USSSA would get a rep in the Urbana & Bellefontaine area to promote fastpitch there. If for nothing else, to clean up the mafia umpiring situation in that area loaded with umpires wearing blue that have no business in the game. They are single-handily destroying the game in that area. Most were slow pitch ump's with no knowledge of this game and sprinkled with a few that used to play fastpitch in an adult league from the West Liberty area.

The sport is beginning to decline around here. Families are opt'ing for easy. So**er is winning the battle.

 

[KinPer]

You are so right. When you were getting involved I was already getting out of the game. I never played "high level" but was on the roster of a team at the "Stroh's Tournament" in Springfield. The sponsor would pick a couple of local teams to fill the bracket and we got selected a couple times. We got thrown a bone. lol. Heck, I was too old to play by then.

Clark County, Ohio had so many slow pitch teams registered the county REC dept couldn't get them all in their leagues back then. Weekend tournaments were abundant. Now diamonds are left unattended as the only real activity is some co-ed teams playing. Nobody locally is trying to host any fastpitch stuff and locally the number of fastptch teams have declined. People are opt'ing for travel ball beyond a county REC league that will actually finish for the summer in another week.

I wish USSSA would get a rep in the Urbana & Bellefontaine area to promote fastpitch there. If for nothing else, to clean up the mafia umpiring situation in that area loaded with umpires wearing blue that have no business in the game. They are single-handily destroying the game in that area. Most were slow pitch ump's with no knowledge of this game and sprinkled with a few that used to play fastpitch in an adult league from the West Liberty area.

The sport is beginning to decline around here. Families are opt'ing for easy. So**er is winning the battle.

Bad umpires are a widespread problem. Even at high levels.
And the problem is that the umpires have the right to interpret the rules as they see fit. And if they are wrong, they will be punished after the game. During the game, it is usually up to them to decide.

Hi all!

 

[Mike_Craig_-_Ohio USSSA]

You are so right. When you were getting involved I was already getting out of the game. I never played "high level" but was on the roster of a team at the "Stroh's Tournament" in Springfield. The sponsor would pick a couple of local teams to fill the bracket and we got selected a couple times. We got thrown a bone. lol. Heck, I was too old to play by then.

Clark County, Ohio had so many slow pitch teams registered the county REC dept couldn't get them all in their leagues back then. Weekend tournaments were abundant. Now diamonds are left unattended as the only real activity is some co-ed teams playing. Nobody locally is trying to host any fastpitch stuff and locally the number of fastptch teams have declined. People are opt'ing for travel ball beyond a county REC league that will actually finish for the summer in another week.

I wish USSSA would get a rep in the Urbana & Bellefontaine area to promote fastpitch there. If for nothing else, to clean up the mafia umpiring situation in that area loaded with umpires wearing blue that have no business in the game. They are single-handily destroying the game in that area. Most were slow pitch ump's with no knowledge of this game and sprinkled with a few that used to play fastpitch in an adult league from the West Liberty area.

The sport is beginning to decline around here. Families are opt'ing for easy. So**er is winning the battle.

You know what the dead give away is that they are slow-pitch umps masquerading as fast-pitch umps is they all seem to be bat boys or bat girls. They are more concerned with picking up the bat after every ball hit, it is redundant. That is what the on deck hitter is there for or a smart catcher who "kicks" it out of the base line so she herself doesn't get caught up in it. If it is going to get in the way of going to the wedge at home plate or watching for a pulled foot at first, then move it with your foot. Other than that, please leave it on the ground.

 

[JLmLaffyLA2004]

The change affects girls with birthdays in 4 months (sept-Dec). I would encourage you to talk with parents of girls with those birth months more than anyone else because that’s who the change affects. It doesn’t affect girls born in the other 8 months. I can tell you just from talking to some parents and coaches where I live they would love for their kids to be grouped back more with kids in their own grade. 8u/10u I’m sure it’s not much of an issue but if you talk to a parent of a December 09 kid who’s in 7th grade playing first year 14u against high school freshman you may get a completely different response. Or an 8th grade 2nd year 14u who can’t play till June because travel ball can’t start till school ball is over. I’ve already talked to enough 12u/14u coaches and parents where we live that like the change and will just put teams together based on the USA rules and skip usssa events all together. Maybe Ohio is different but where we live you can’t play travel ball in HS until HS season is over so some of these 2nd year 14u girls with sept-Dec birthdays are waiting till June to start playing while their classmates are playing starting in March. Just my perspective on it as my girls don’t play showcase events and just want to play with their friends, which I believe is probably a vast majority of girls who play as is. It’s never made sense to me why baseball age date is April 30 and softball is December 31 so if someone knows that backstory I’d love to know.

My two girls are 11 months a part. One in 8U and other in 10U, but both have the same issue with November and December birthdays. Always have to play up every other year with girls in grade above them. This issue makes it much harder to make travel ball team that start tryouts around now for team that is trying to stay together for fall through spring/summer. Especially for my oldest who isn't as physically developed aka on the smaller side having to play with grade or two older girls moving up into 10U fastpitch. Regardless of size mentally it also can be a challenge when your third grader is being pitched to for her first time from a 5th grader..... and has to watch her little sister get to play with all of her friends whom will have the same problem next year.

 

[CARDS]

My two girls are 11 months a part. One in 8U and other in 10U, but both have the same issue with November and December birthdays. Always have to play up every other year with girls in grade above them. This issue makes it much harder to make travel ball team that start tryouts around now for team that is trying to stay together for fall through spring/summer. Especially for my oldest who isn't as physically developed aka on the smaller side having to play with grade or two older girls moving up into 10U fastpitch. Regardless of size mentally it also can be a challenge when your third grader is being pitched to for her first time from a 5th grader..... and has to watch her little sister get to play with all of her friends whom will have the same problem next year.

Keep them together, many teams will be glad to have siblings and committed families...

My DDs birth day was December 22nd. She always played up and never knew the difference.
Most ladies can play up a year or two and no one could ever tell because of how they mature mentality and physically so much faster than boys.
Its not the size of the package but the play they deliver especially at the under 12 ages.
I seen some studs at 8/9 playing with or, out playing 10s. I remember a 8U coach pitch event I watched in Galeton TN.
Wow.... girls as young as 5 laying out and smoking the ball with others as old as 8 if that's old...

 

[JLmLaffyLA2004]

Keep them together, many teams will be glad to have siblings and committed families...

My DDs birth day was December 22nd. She always played up and never knew the difference.
Most ladies can play up a year or two and no one could ever tell because of how they mature mentality and physically so much faster than boys.
Its not the size of the package but the play they deliver especially at the under 12 ages.
I seen some studs at 8/9 playing with or, out playing 10s. I remember a 8U coach pitch event I watched in Galeton TN.
Wow.... girls as young as 5 laying out and smoking the ball with others as old as 8 if that's old...

Good idea, but not so worried about my younger one. Although the older DD loved softball, would practice with me all the time and was pretty good..... until having to move up to fastpitch with mature girls twice her size and two grades ahead of her. Agree girls mature earlier and faster, but the timing is different from one to the other. Especially between the end of 8U through 10U/12U. In my case the older daughter if cut off dates were changed across the board..... could have used the additional year in coach pitch with her friends, but my younger daughter I actually could play up with the older daughter when she would have move up under a May 31 cut off date, as the younger is maturing faster. Now my older has completely lost interest that mainly has to do with moving up too early with older girls. Feel like the new USA age cut off will prevent more girls especially the ones who have these September to December birthdates from quitting before they start to mature. Easier to adjust with your friends who are all going through the same thing. These birth days would actually be an advantage if they played high school, but doesn't matter if they are intimidated and quit too early to figure that out. I'm looking at this from a perspective of how to keep more girls in the sport in general by matching age classification to school year. This provides comfort and companionship while navigating through the early and late maturity time spread in these younger age groups. You always have the option to play the earlier bloomers up regardless of a couple month roll back of the cut off date. I find there are way more late bloomers whether physical or mental when it comes to sports, and at some point you can't accommodate everyone.... but the obvious issue of not keeping same grade school age friends together is not helpful for the sport.

 

[MountainCoach]

Nobody seems to be addressing the elephant in the room…forget about school grades for a moment and think about age divisions; 8U (8 years old and UNDER) will have girls nearly 10 years old
I get wanting to keep grades together but think the terminology for the age classes would need to be adjusted also to make any sense whatsoever meaning rather than 8U, 10U…18U, it would have to be 9U.11U…19U

Maybe I’m missing something here but it seems as if they went through the trouble to change birth dates to match grade levels, they should have adjusted the titles of age divisions too because as it stands now as of 2024 season, it just doesn’t make sense imho

 

[Passion4theGame]

Nobody seems to be addressing the elephant in the room…forget about school grades for a moment and think about age divisions; 8U (8 years old and UNDER) will have girls nearly 10 years old
I get wanting to keep grades together but think the terminology for the age classes would need to be adjusted also to make any sense whatsoever meaning rather than 8U, 10U…18U, it would have to be 9U.11U…19U

Maybe I’m missing something here but it seems as if they went through the trouble to change birth dates to match grade levels, they should have adjusted the titles of age divisions too because as it stands now as of 2024 season, it just doesn’t make sense imho

I agree with this.
Example: I am coaching a 16u team for the 23/24 season. Based on the new USA rule Late 2006 kids can play on my roster. I have had several call me but declined to have them try out. Team is a 16u 2007 birth year. Makes no sense in taking a 2006 birthdate kid.

I'm sure we will see several coaches with 2006 kids on their roster playing 16u this coming season. Same as seeing teams play down in the fall. makes no sense.

 

[flygirlsdad]

I'm sure we will see several coaches with 2006 kids on their roster playing 16u this coming season. Same as seeing teams play down in the fall. makes no sense.

Depends on your focus. If you are playing in front of college coaches, they are recruiting grad years. Its why teams put grad years on players jerseys. If thats your focus then pick up 06s with 2025 grad years. Its not playing down.
If your focus is to try and win USSSA tournaments, then stick with all 07s with 25 and 26 grad years.

 

[MountainCoach]

Depends on your focus. If you are playing in front of college coaches, they are recruiting grad years. Its why teams put grad years on players jerseys. If thats your focus then pick up 06s with 2025 grad years. Its not playing down.
If your focus is to try and win USSSA tournaments, then stick with all 07s with 25 and 26 grad years.

I understand this but still doesn’t help the ridiculousness of the division titles when 18U is compromised of girls nearing their 20th birthdays
I’m finishing up the summer season with my 8U team (doing it all again as my other daughters are 19 and 21)
Not a big deal for fall as we get very few new girls for fall season but looking at next summer and thinking there won’t be room for any younger players, the traditional 7 and 8 year olds with a just few already 9, looking to embark on travel ball, as the spots in 8 and UNDER will be filled by girls about to turn 9 and 10. When they changed the birthdates, they should have played it honestly and changed division ages to reflect (9U, 11U, 13U, 15U, 17U, 19U) OR like soccer does and go with U10, U12, U14, U16, U18, and U20. That is what it really is. As it is now is extremely misleading and a lot of families and 7 and 8 year old girls will be dismayed come summer when it will be almost impossible to make it into a squad and if they do, to see much play time.

 

[Passion4theGame]

Depends on your focus. If you are playing in front of college coaches, they are recruiting grad years. Its why teams put grad years on players jerseys. If thats your focus then pick up 06s with 2025 grad years. Its not playing down.
If your focus is to try and win USSSA tournaments, then stick with all 07s with 25 and 26 grad years.

I agree with you but also I don’t agree with you. Maybe it’s because it’s new and a change and people don’t like changes. Who knows, maybe in the future it will be the norm and we all adjust. Until then I am using Jan 1. most showcases will still be using Jan. 1 per Several directors I have talked to. They may use USA rule set but strictly Jan. 1 birthdate per their rules. Multiple Directors have confirmed this. Some of the biggest showcases in Ohio and surrounding states. This is what I based my selections on for my team.

I will say this regarding our team. Our focus is recruiting. I understand they are recruiting grad years. We have had a team of 22s ALL 04s, team of 23s all 05s. ALL received multiple offers. ALL signed and playing or heading to college to play while earning their degrees.
We are Now doing a team of 25s all 07s.
Not taking 06s that should be playing 18u. I understand some 06s can still be 25s but I try to stick grad year and age all the same. Do we miss on some solid players? Yes, but that’s ok. We did damn well this summer.

I believe we do a solid job with the recruiting. Track record speaks for itself. We play the right events and we get into the right pools for maximum exposure. We have built very solid relationships with the help of our Org.


This is just My opinion it shouldn’t change. Coaches recruit solid players playing solid competition. 16u or 18u. Whichever. Doesn’t matter.

All I’m saying is why change it now? If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

 

[Passion4theGame]

so let me ask this, let’s say ur DD has a December birthdate and she is super smart so the school moves her up a grade. Do you think she needs to play with her grad year or her age?

I get it with the change but until it’s set that way by showcase directors I’m not changing my way of building a team. Others can do what they choose. It’s America. Lol.