New USA age cut off for next season?

[flygirlsdad]

Quick Google search found 2 groups will use USA ages, PG and FPN. PG (Perfect Game) is one of the big baseball showcase programs but looks like they do some softball in the midwest. FPN runs showcases in the New England area. Nothing new from Alliance, PGF, D1, or other softball programs. There may be an impact on tryouts with teams not being sure which way to go or just playing it safe and using straight birth year. Maybe others will put something out as Championships are wrapping up.

 

[daboss]

sorry, trying to remove a duplicate post

 

[daboss]

Now since the 2023 season has about all but ended (we "officially" end on August 15, but more for any TD running Rec/All-Stars the next two weekends or All State Games), I am getting bombarded with questions and other requests. Here are a few:

1. Can we get a waiver because we want to keep kids who have fall birthdays on our team?
2. Are you going to change your mind and follow 8/31 birthdays?
3. Can you just let the older kids follow the USA rule and leave the younger kids to follow your current rule?

Ok. I also got cussed out by one woman because her daughter has a August 30 birthday and our "new" rules won't let her stay in her current age group and her daughter will be 13 playing against 15 year old women (as she put it)? After I explained to her that we didn't change anything, she hung up on me (a typical Karen). This just an ordinary call I get weekly.......

So the answers to these pressing questions:

1 & 3 - No waivers. We also can't trick our system to show one age cutoff date for different age groups. We do have a 4/30 cutoff in Baseball but can not selectively make different cutoffs in one sport. It has to be one date only or our web team would probably kill us if we did something like that to them.

2. We will discuss the age cutoff change by ONE organization first at our regional meeting in later August and then our National meeting in November. We will gather all points/counterpoints at that Regional to present to the National meeting when we have our open FP meeting on opening day at the convention. This is the main reason I left NSA after summer of 2015. They dictated to us that all teams would have to purchase their (NSA) team insurance to play in their events. They did not consult a single director at any level, they just dictated it to the people who have to explain it every day to teams. With USSSA, we do still have some say in how things are done since we have to answer to the teams at the state and local levels. Since some of the directors with the group who made the change seem to have only found out when the public did, it appears how this was handled at a National level.

USSSA can be the trend setter in this whole thing whether the group that made the change likes it or not. If we decided to also make the change, then you can wager that anyone of the smaller players (USFA/NSA/FASA/SBN/NAFA) in areas where we have a large market share, will jump right in line and follow suit so they can mirror what we do to keep getting their market share. What will happen then? Will the other group immediately change back so they can appear to be doing something exciting for the game?

Do not get me wrong, I think it is a very good idea. We just do not ram things down peoples throats who work for us without a discussion. If we meet in August then November and think this is a bad idea, then we move on and go about our everyday business. But at least those in leadership roles will have had a say in the matter.

Passionthe4Gam makes a valid point about this age cut-off controversy. I don't like to address it. Every confrontation is different but I mostly let them vent, then respond I didn't do anything. In Mike's defense, he didn't do anything. USSSA didn't do anything. lol.

I feel for everyone but especially for those in a position like Mike's that has no control of the issue.

My statements will make no difference. Parents venting are not going to make anyone feel better but themselves. Know this to be true, noted, and move on.

Parents; this is not the first time in the history of travel fastpitch softball the age cut-off date has been changed. It's probably your first time but not the game's. Personally, I believe the simplest and easiest cut-off to follow would be the school's cut-off date, the date used to determine the class they should be in. I do not know if this is a national date that's set or by state, but even if it is different by state just let them play. People normally don't complain about the school date because they feel they have no choice. They can hold them back if they choose to but the standard is set and that's what matters. Takes the pressure off any of the sanctions. Just my opinion.

 

[OhioKymn]

That would be a great way to address this, but the cut off date for school isn't universal even in Ohio. Districts choose their own age cut off. Two schools, both in my county, are pretty different: one is August 1 and the other is September 30. So there is a 2 month gap. Kids born the same day in August or September in my county are in different grades depending on their address (which district).

 

[Mike_Craig_-_Ohio USSSA]

Quick Google search found 2 groups will use USA ages, PG and FPN. PG (Perfect Game) is one of the big baseball showcase programs but looks like they do some softball in the midwest. FPN runs showcases in the New England area. Nothing new from Alliance, PGF, D1, or other softball programs. There may be an impact on tryouts with teams not being sure which way to go or just playing it safe and using straight birth year. Maybe others will put something out as Championships are wrapping up.

PG softball is ran by the director who hired me with USSSA. He was the Midwest VP and eventually National Director for USSSA Fastpitch and got approached by PG to start up their softball offering starting within the Midwest states right before Covid. He is getting small traction primarily in the areas he ran events in prior is about it. PG is baseballs equivalent of PGF in that there majority focus is on high end/showcase baseball events.

Honestly, something like this age change would have probably been something he would have been onboard with the minute it was explained to him as he authored a lot of the good changes and great programs that are prevalent in USSSA still to this day.

FPN I know nothing about as I rarely ever hear about the New England states.

I do not know that any date change is going to be perfect. Like Kymn stated below, school age restrictions vary from state to state and district to district.

I do know that we will have our work cut out for us to convince some of our directors at the higher level to get behind the change. Our region boss also runs Indiana. He has almost completely wiped out all of his competition especially USA Softball. They have national board members in their state who can not get events off the ground at all. Almost all of their hot spots have parks that have contacted our guy to put events in their parks so they do not sit empty every weekend in the summer like they have the past two seasons. So to convince him that changing to something that USA is doing is going to fall on deaf ears.

Texas is another spot that USSSA primarily is the dominant sanction. Other than metro Dallas, USA is small in the other metro areas of the state. Our TX state director is also the Southern Region director so another one who will be hard to convince when he has not much competition from them in his state.

Iowa is another where we are the dominant sanction. Guess who the Midwest Regional boss is? Same with Kansas. Guess where our National director's home state is and where he operates his tournament company out of?

I have explained to them all, in Ohio I am behind enemy lines with reference to USA Softball with the former National director living in the middle of the state. I do my best to get market share but will probably never "own" the state like some of our other state directors do.

 

[daboss]

That would be a great way to address this, but the cut off date for school isn't universal even in Ohio. Districts choose their own age cut off. Two schools, both in my county, are pretty different: one is August 1 and the other is September 30. So there is a 2 month gap. Kids born the same day in August or September in my county are in different grades depending on their address (which district).

Thank you for sharing. I was unaware and a bit surprised of such a loosely controlled rule (if this is the proper word) and would have expected this to be more uniform within the state. So, throw my idea in the wind. lol.

 

[daboss]

PG softball is ran by the director who hired me with USSSA. He was the Midwest VP and eventually National Director for USSSA Fastpitch and got approached by PG to start up their softball offering starting within the Midwest states right before Covid. He is getting small traction primarily in the areas he ran events in prior is about it. PG is baseballs equivalent of PGF in that there majority focus is on high end/showcase baseball events.

Honestly, something like this age change would have probably been something he would have been onboard with the minute it was explained to him as he authored a lot of the good changes and great programs that are prevalent in USSSA still to this day.

FPN I know nothing about as I rarely ever hear about the New England states.

I do not know that any date change is going to be perfect. Like Kymn stated below, school age restrictions vary from state to state and district to district.

I do know that we will have our work cut out for us to convince some of our directors at the higher level to get behind the change. Our region boss also runs Indiana. He has almost completely wiped out all of his competition especially USA Softball. They have national board members in their state who can not get events off the ground at all. Almost all of their hot spots have parks that have contacted our guy to put events in their parks so they do not sit empty every weekend in the summer like they have the past two seasons. So to convince him that changing to something that USA is doing is going to fall on deaf ears.

Texas is another spot that USSSA primarily is the dominant sanction. Other than metro Dallas, USA is small in the other metro areas of the state. Our TX state director is also the Southern Region director so another one who will be hard to convince when he has not much competition from them in his state.

Iowa is another where we are the dominant sanction. Guess who the Midwest Regional boss is? Same with Kansas. Guess where our National director's home state is and where he operates his tournament company out of?

I have explained to them all, in Ohio I am behind enemy lines with reference to USA Softball with the former National director living in the middle of the state. I do my best to get market share but will probably never "own" the state like some of our other state directors do.

You know I have been an advocate for USSSA for years but with your post I really see how you are fighting an uphill battle. Hang in there and thanks for explaining your position on the matter.

 

[Mike_Craig_-_Ohio USSSA]

You know I have been an advocate for USSSA for years but with your post I really see how you are fighting an uphill battle. Hang in there and thanks for explaining your position on the matter.

Thank you.

There are ways to go after problems and one is recruit but frankly there are some USA directors here in Ohio, I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole and I'm sure they feel the same way about me. But they are our biggest help as we are up in numbers for the 3rd year in a row post-covid including team registrations.

Here in central Ohio we have wiped out all of their previous events other than a couple that were already in place when I started. We will never knock the Showdowns events out of Berliner and she will never register with us because she is entrenched there and we don't give her anything she can use to increase her entries. My previous employer, NSA, showed the blueprint for using that complex to run a National/Regional type event and she has the month of July sealed off down there.

When you break down the state a little, there are some areas that have no real dominant group that runs it. Cleveland has very little USA or USSSA presence and has several independent events. Same with Akron and Youngstown. Those are really big areas in Ohio to have not much or very little for what is self perceived to be the dominant group in Ohio.

 

[S@ftball]

Does anyone know if Alliance will continue following USA Softball for the 2024 season (which means age cutoff of August 31)? Alliance has not updated their website.

 

[BK5931]

Thank you.

There are ways to go after problems and one is recruit but frankly there are some USA directors here in Ohio, I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole and I'm sure they feel the same way about me. But they are our biggest help as we are up in numbers for the 3rd year in a row post-covid including team registrations.

Here in central Ohio we have wiped out all of their previous events other than a couple that were already in place when I started. We will never knock the Showdowns events out of Berliner and she will never register with us because she is entrenched there and we don't give her anything she can use to increase her entries. My previous employer, NSA, showed the blueprint for using that complex to run a National/Regional type event and she has the month of July sealed off down there.

When you break down the state a little, there are some areas that have no real dominant group that runs it. Cleveland has very little USA or USSSA presence and has several independent events. Same with Akron and Youngstown. Those are really big areas in Ohio to have not much or very little for what is self perceived to be the dominant group in Ohio.

Anything new to report on this for 2025? Has USSSA had their October meeting yet?

 

[Softball nani]

It is confusing for sure. The easiest way to think of this is Aug 31 is the new Dec 31. Yes, there are bound to be teams that need to adjust and in theory some players will be able to take advantage of "another year" in whatever age bracket they have been in. My guess will be all in all for established teams and players this won't make much of a difference.

So, my granddaughter was born October, 2006, just turned 17). We thought she needed to move up to 18u this next season, 23/24. Is it correct that she can still play 16u? Seems like this extends everyone’s travel careers if they aren’t playing in college. Seems weird that a physical 17yr old could play 16u?

 

[Stedman00]

she can for usa events. NOT for USSSA aged events.

 

[Mike_Craig_-_Ohio USSSA]

Anything new to report on this for 2025? Has USSSA had their October meeting yet?

We just concluded our yearly meeting yesterday and have no intention to change this age cutoff date from 12/31 for 2024 or 2025. With the exception of a few showcase groups and USA Softball, the majority of the associations we were corresponding with are staying on 12/31 birth dates for their rosters also. We do still offer odd year (9/11/13/15u) age groups that teams can register in but no changes to report.

 

[BK5931]

We just concluded our yearly meeting yesterday and have no intention to change this age cutoff date from 12/31 for 2024 or 2025. With the exception of a few players and USA Softball, the majority of the associations we were corresponding with are staying on 12/31 birth dates for their rosters also. We do still offer odd year (9/11/13/15u) age groups that teams can register in but no changes to report.

That is disappointing to hear. I will say the 12/31 date affects many more than a few players, probably around 25% or more. It costs girls with Sept-Dec birthdays a season of travel ball. Meaning when they are seniors they cannot play in many tournaments. I think your organization should do some more research.

 

[bleacherbum]

That is disappointing to hear. I will say the 12/31 date affects many more than a few players, probably around 25% or more. It costs girls with Sept-Dec birthdays a season of travel ball. Meaning when they are seniors they cannot play in many tournaments. I think your organization should do some more research.

As he has stated several times in this thread, they are not interested in doing what is best for the girls. They are just interested in doing what makes them the most $$$...
He has stated that the higher powers already have control over their states, like Indiana and Texas, so why make a change? Never considering what may be best for the girls, but what is best for them. That is the very sad part of their decision. Definitely all about the money and not about the players. They could do both, but don't want to do what is right - just what makes them the most money....Shame, Shame, Shame

 

[OhioKymn]

First of all, what high school senior turned 19 in the first few months of her senior year of high school? That is the only circumstance that a senior cant still play 18u travel ball her senior year.
Moving the age cut off to Sept 1 just means that the girls with July and August birthdays are the new " bad birthdays" who cant play an "extra year", and there will be a statistical 25% that will fall in the last quarter of the new "year" regardless of when the cut off is. My August 28th birthday daughter will just become the the new "December 28th" kid. So then maybe i should petition for it to be August 1, so it helps my daughter? Which by the way would keep her playing with her graduating class. Oh, but August 1st will hurt my other daughter with a July birthday... So lets move it to July 1st. We cant solve the problem of girls that are just barely too old for a division.
Moving it to Sept 1 helps some specific peoples kids, and hurts a different group.
There will always be the kids with the bad birthdays. We cant fix that. It isn't about money, it is about keeping it simple. Most everyone I have talked to that is all for the new date has a daughter that is benefitted by it. So lets not get into selfish motivation.
And for the record, I have October & November birthday daughters, too, who would benefit from the change; I just don't see why it is necessary.

 

[BK5931]

First of all, what high school senior turned 19 in the first few months of her senior year of high school? That is the only circumstance that a senior cant still play 18u travel ball her senior year.
Moving the age cut off to Sept 1 just means that the girls with July and August birthdays are the new " bad birthdays" who cant play an "extra year", and there will be a statistical 25% that will fall in the last quarter of the new "year" regardless of when the cut off is. My August 28th birthday daughter will just become the the new "December 28th" kid. So then maybe i should petition for it to be August 1, so it helps my daughter? Which by the way would keep her playing with her graduating class. Oh, but August 1st will hurt my other daughter with a July birthday... So lets move it to July 1st. We cant solve the problem of girls that are just barely too old for a division.
Moving it to Sept 1 helps some specific peoples kids, and hurts a different group.
There will always be the kids with the bad birthdays. We cant fix that. It isn't about money, it is about keeping it simple. Most everyone I have talked to that is all for the new date has a daughter that is benefitted by it. So lets not get into selfish motivation.
And for the record, I have October & November birthday daughters, too, who would benefit from the change; I just don't see why it is necessary.

Its simple, ur making it long and difficult. Sept 1 follows grades much closer than dec 31. Its not perfect and never will be, but its much much much better aligned to grades. Girls r not turning 19 their senior yrs, they are turning 18. Which means for many, they lose a year of travel ball while others gain a year

 

[Mike_Craig_-_Ohio USSSA]

As he has stated several times in this thread, they are not interested in doing what is best for the girls. They are just interested in doing what makes them the most $$$...
He has stated that the higher powers already have control over their states, like Indiana and Texas, so why make a change? Never considering what may be best for the girls, but what is best for them. That is the very sad part of their decision. Definitely all about the money and not about the players. They could do both, but don't want to do what is right - just what makes them the most money....Shame, Shame, Shame

So "under the bleachers bum/anonymous poster" sell me on what is so good about this revolutionary change to a system that has been in place since I ran my first event in 2000? And how not adopting it makes us greedy and "all about the money"? Or are you going to just post your usual derogatory rhetoric like the majority of your other posts are filled with. Tell how staying with the current age cutoffs we have makes us the most money?

If what you are saying is true, then we should not have any entries in our events since Ohio has a lot of USA Softball or events following their age guideline options still. We were up in entries for the third year in a row, post-covid, and are pacing the same and higher in some events already for next season. By your flawed "logic", we should have no one wanting to play our events since this new age date is such a no brainer that we are avoiding because we rake in piles of money the old way.

The other poster said it affects around 25% of kids he guesses. Really? We should completely blow up a system that affects a small majority of the participants? If he did the research and seen it was 65-75% of kids in our program, then we need to lobby National to make that change and quickly before we lose all of the teams that play in our events. And I would wager he has a daughter that has a fall birthday or he wouldn't care at all.

I have yet to be contacted by one single coach/parent who wanted us to change to 8/31 other than a small crowd of parents of high school age girls they want to sneak in a 3rd year of 14u or 16u for their daughter. Not a single call, e-mail, or contact from anyone with a younger team.

And the majority of the showcase events are non-affiliated and most go by grad years anyway if they even enforce rosters. I guess they are all about the money also then?

I can see why state directors or prominent TD's for events in Ohio, have no desire to post on here anymore. With gutless and nameless people like "under the bleachers bum" and his other log ins, it is a toxic environment. Just post your tournaments so you can get entries (which you now get charged to post) and ignore the rest of the site. But wouldn't that be all about the money then?

 

[BK5931]

So "under the bleachers bum/anonymous poster" sell me on what is so good about this revolutionary change to a system that has been in place since I ran my first event in 2000? And how not adopting it makes us greedy and "all about the money"? Or are you going to just post your usual derogatory rhetoric like the majority of your other posts are filled with. Tell how staying with the current age cutoffs we have makes us the most money?

If what you are saying is true, then we should not have any entries in our events since Ohio has a lot of USA Softball or events following their age guideline options still. We were up in entries for the third year in a row, post-covid, and are pacing the same and higher in some events already for next season. By your flawed "logic", we should have no one wanting to play our events since this new age date is such a no brainer that we are avoiding because we rake in piles of money the old way.

The other poster said it affects around 25% of kids he guesses. Really? We should completely blow up a system that affects a small majority of the participants? If he did the research and seen it was 65-75% of kids in our program, then we need to lobby National to make that change and quickly before we lose all of the teams that play in our events. And I would wager he has a daughter that has a fall birthday or he wouldn't care at all.

I have yet to be contacted by one single coach/parent who wanted us to change to 8/31 other than a small crowd of parents of high school age girls they want to sneak in a 3rd year of 14u or 16u for their daughter. Not a single call, e-mail, or contact from anyone with a younger team.

And the majority of the showcase events are non-affiliated and most go by grad years anyway if they even enforce rosters. I guess they are all about the money also then?

I can see why state directors or prominent TD's for events in Ohio, have no desire to post on here anymore. With gutless and nameless people like "under the bleachers bum" and his other log ins, it is a toxic environment. Just post your tournaments so you can get entries (which you now get charged to post) and ignore the rest of the site. But wouldn't that be all about the money then?

Wow, very professional of you. It does affect 25% of kids, the current set up allows for 19 yr olds to get the extra year. I dont see how you and all your experience doesnt recognize this. All USA did was close that loophole.

You wont c your enrollment drop or go down based on this change, the girls currently affected by this change r all just playing up right now. Again, dont know how you and all your experience dont recognize this.

Look at any roster and you will see girls who r born sept-dec and playing on teams of girls who are mostly up a grad year from them.

The reason your enrollments r up in tournaments is because softball in general is a growing sport. It’s not validation of your age guidelines.

Feel free to call me, my name is bob kohls, i live in petersburg, m and my phone number is 419-283-0256. There, not anonymous anymore, not that i ever was

 

[Mike_Craig_-_Ohio USSSA]

Wow, very professional of you. It does affect 25% of kids, the current set up allows for 19 yr olds to get the extra year. I dont see how you and all your experience doesnt recognize this. All USA did was close that loophole.

You wont c your enrollment drop or go down based on this change, the girls currently affected by this change r all just playing up right now. Again, dont know how you and all your experience dont recognize this.

Look at any roster and you will see girls who r born sept-dec and playing on teams of girls who are mostly up a grad year from them.

The reason your enrollments r up in tournaments is because softball in general is a growing sport. It’s not validation of your age guidelines.

Feel free to call me, my name is bob kohls, i live in petersburg, m and my phone number is 419-283-0256. There, not anonymous anymore, not that i ever was

I wasn't referring to you not having the stones to post your name.

Loophole, maybe if you address it like that. But if this has been this big of an issue for so long, why has it taken this long for a group to address it? And why were they the only group to do this? Only a handful of groups are following suit and those are mainly the ones who like to run unsanctioned but use USA rules to avoid kicking up to them. Must really be all about the money for them then also?

When the decision by the other group to change was made, I seen both sides of it and the only ones who benefit are the older age groups which I didn't disagree with. The issue there is we can't have one standard for one part of the program and a different one for a different piece of it. And honestly, we do not see many 19 year olds as you referred to in our programs as most second year 18u teams really struggle to stay together that last summer of softball. We do have 18 over age groups which many of those players would rather play in anyway if they play at all that summer. And like Kymn posted, there is hardly two states next to each other that has the same age date for enrollment so even grad year is not a perfect solution. And what about kids who parents hold them back a year that are 19 before their senior year of high school begins or turn it during the school year. There are your 19 year olds also playing another season of 18u too.

And the intel we got from some vendors who worked the other groups convention was that this was still a very divided issue with them a few weeks ago when discussed in their meetings. They just implemented it this fall but teams and tournament directors are not running to their brand in droves like they must have envisioned would happen. But unlike them, we the directors do have a say in our programs and do not get dictated down to by a couple of higher ups who have not ran events in several years. In essence, the people on the ground have say and not get dictated to by the folks behind the curtain or in the ivory tower.