Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Pitching Limitation Rules...A Modest Proposal

[Softballfarm]

Hi Everyone...

Tonight on the Radio Show a discussion was made about the lack of pitchers in fastpitch. Nothing new here...we all know there aren't enough. However, I wanted to begin a discussion with the OFC community about a way to increase the number of pitchers in Travel ball and that would be for tournaments to institute maximum inning rules for pitchers. This rule would force teams to carry, and use, more pitchers during the season and every weekend. Just think...all the #3 and #4 pitchers that get minimal innings in a season are now valued members of the staff. Instead of quitting/giving up pitching because of the lack of opportunity, there is now a need. More demand, more opportunity, more pitchers.

Anyone familiar with baseball, travel baseball etc, is aware of the pitching limitations which are in place for the safety of the boys' arm's. We all know the difference between overhand and underhand throwing and the stress on the arm. But, overuse injuries are not just reserved for boys.

Of course this idea would be a revolutionary, transformational change for our sport...probably sanctioning bodies (except for NSA lol) would have to mandate this so tournaments are consistent...but the way I see it is if we want more pitchers we can do one of two things...we can complain about it or we can do something about it.

Anyhow...I am sure the devil is in the details but I just wanted to offer this up for discussion.

I thank you in advance for your responses

Joe Nay
Thunder Elite 03

 

[FastBat]

I think every team should carry three pitcher's because it's silly to have only two, especially with travel teams that play all summer. It's called pitching depth...the very best teams have it and nothing is more defeating, to the opposing team, than taking out the #1 pitcher only to realize #2 or #3 is just as good.

Even though my DD is a pitcher, I believe she should be playing other positions too.

I think most teams will find a way to cheat, like everything else, around pitching rules if they did happen.

Pitching rules or not, most pitcher's start to look mediocre, when the pitch counts start adding up. My dd can throw 105-120 pitches with quality, then needs a break. This past weekend I looked down at my game changer, when I thought "the wheels are starting to fall off" and it said 106 pitches, the weekend before it was 120, and the game ended shortly after. Would a third pitcher, look as good as the first, at that point?

 

[coachjwb]

The best teams do have 3-4 strong pitchers, but the issue is that most teams do not. We got into this whole discussion on the show as a result of talking about the "watered down" thread.

There was a discussion about a month ago with college coaches "complaining" and asking where have all the 16U pitchers gone? My premise is that there aren't too many teams, just not enough pitchers (and perhaps good coaches ... but that's another discussion!) to go around, and part of the reason for that is too many younger pitchers are working too hard and then not getting much time on the rubber in games because both travel and school teams are riding their #1's. And so they give it up. But look at any boys' baseball team and they have 6-8 kids who can pitch ... at least partially because they have to with the pitching limit rules. Just because some coaches/teams will try to find ways to cheat them is no reason not to have them. Plus, chances are we don't know what the long-term effect may be with overuse issues.

I love the concept, but recognize it's an uphill battle getting the sanctioning organizations to even consider something like this. But let's not let the fact that something may be difficult to ever do stop us from at least having an intelligent discussion about it.

And yeah my DD was a pitcher too.

 

[TheSoftballZone]

I'm wonder how many teams especially in the younger age group 10 under, 12 under and 14 under would be willing or force to develop more pitchers instead of carry the stock #1 and #2 pitchers to carry the work load for a typical week-end tournament. If pitchers were limited to maybe 12 or 14 innings or even less over the course of the weekend.

I think this would be great for the sports. Plus it may just encourage more pitchers and parents to keep working on the delevelopment of a younger pitcher.

I'm almost 100% sure if I could go back in time my DD would have been a pitcher instead of a catcher if pitchers were limited to innings.

No my daughter was not a pitcher, but she almost had to pitch for her High School. Just how Close was she to pitching in a High School Game. She was warming up and she wasn't wearing catching equipment.

 

[Pacerdad57]

most teams that are not "elite", and most HS teams ride the #1 until it's all over, with minimal or no time for the #2, #3 pitchers on the staff. a lot of coaches will say(face it almost all coaches) i keep them all ready to throw, they will all get lots of innings, then become enamored with one of them, sometimes using that pitcher way longer than they are effective, but are unwilling to bring her out of the game. this not only causes the other pitchers on the staff to start thinking about giving up pitching, but also means they aren't getting many reps in the circle. it's a catch 22 for those pitchers. no circle time, the mechanics start to go off, the mental attitude really goes off, they become rusty and ineffective. then the coach throws them back in and guess what? they are rusty, they get hit, and they start to question the whole prospect of all the time put into pitching with no returns, and then they start to consider quitting the position.
i think a pitch count is not a bad idea, even with knowing there is a big difference between over and underhand.
definitely something worth looking at to try to develop the overall depth of pitchers across the board.

 

[daboss]

As mentioned above, the number of cooks in the kitchen can have a negative impact on the girls once the circle time is compromised. One of the most talented rosters I ever saw turned out to be the worst team that ever competed. 8 of the 10 girls were front line pitchers and all were upset because they weren't getting the circle time. This was a 16u roster.

I'd love to see 2 quality pitchers on each roster and 2 girls willing to learn the craft on the side. no expectations but know in those occasional pool games or in case of an injury we could call on them to fill the void. Who knows, maybe they'll show some talent and pursue lessons in the off season and develop into that front line pitcher that another team can use to compete the following summer. That's right people, if you develop that talent there's a good chance she'll have the same demands of any other #2 or #1 pitcher and want more time in the circle. In many cases it comes down to desire and opportunity. Some will step up their game and can, even at a later age.

 

[spartansd]

I think the issue is deeper than this.

In my opinion much of the issue has to do with moving the mound back to 43 feet. That has had an effect that I did not see coming but I think is very real. Girls that could compete and be affective from 40 feet at 14U now get drilled. So instead of sticking with it they are just dropping it. From 40 feet some decent velocity and spotting a pitch or two could make you a good pitcher. But now that we are at 43 feet these same pitchers get lit up. And the coaches also give them the message that they are not good enough. So instead of having players stay in pitching and develop as they get bigger and stronger, they drop out. And the problem is manifesting itself at the 16U and 18U level.

Movement and velocity only get better as you get older and stronger. But the late developers are being driven out at 14U. And what makes matters worse is that the message or the perception is that the best pitchers will get recruited at 14U. So the message is that I need to move to a position and hit if I am not a top dog at 14U.

This is why I always prefer to discuss competing and not winning. I am not saying that you do not reward winning or that is not the goal. But if we can all agree that we cannot control winning we can only control effort and preparation, then we can agree that the real measure can not be winning. But if you make the measuring stick winning. Then the players will not be able to create a measuring stick of progress. It becomes a pass fail test. And if you get to many fails you decide this is not for me. So I think this moving back of the mound has created to much negative feedback to the marginal 14U pitchers and they bail. So at 16U the late bloomers are disappearing. Creating a issue now 5 years after the change.

I also agree that the riding of one pitcher at lower ages also contributes but this has always been an issue. So while that is a contributor it can not be the reason we are seeing a larger issue now. It has to be something else. And I think it was moving the mound back 3 feet. It was supposed to prepare pitchers better for college and also open up the game. But I think it has had a negative effect no one saw coming.

 

[Fairman]

Spartan
I think you may be on something.

A kid cannot just blow it by them anymore and must develop breaking pitches, change speeds, locate pitches, and use some pitches to set up other pitches. At the college level my dd seldom throws a fastball for a strike, she just shows it to set up the next pitch.

A shutout is a rarity and a perfect game virtually unheard of. Just look at the scores in the latest WCWS and see how the offense has increased run production. So a pitcher today will throw many more pitches in a complete game.

This directly translates to needing more pitchers to do the same tournament. It also means that a kid that could blow them up with a fastball as a 12U; is getting shelled as a 16U. These kids have to develop effective breaking pitches to stay in the game and that will take more time and effort than most players/parents/coaches will devote.

The few that do the work will be richly rewarded

 

[DanMaz]

you play to WIN the game! you don't play just to play.... you play to WIN THE GAME! ( just as Herm Edwards said!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMk5sMHj58I


Games are played to WIN. nobody is going to join a team that isn't trying to WIN. This isn't everybody gets a trophy!!! That has hurt our youth more than any other movement in youth sports. Lets give EVERYONE a trophy.... that's what this sounds like. poor pitchers........ pitching limitations?? sorry but i don't like it!

 

[crystlemc]

I think that some of the problem is, no matter how many people say "movement kills" in pitching, their actions show otherwise. There are a LOT of very good movement pitchers who get overlooked because they aren't throwing 60+, even though they can often be more effective than a barn burner. Those girls get frustrated. My DD is a pretty talented movement pitcher, throwing upper mid 50's with a great rise ball and change up. She manhandled Indiana Prospects 99 last year, generating pop ups and dribblers, until our defense fell apart in their last at bats. She has performed very well against some high level teams, but has always been overlooked and discounted because she is not a flame thrower. That fact alone, is a big hit to a kid's confidence. Now, she no longer wants to pitch and only does it in HS because we have nobody else. Yes, speed is nice, but will eventually get hit and until coaches at all levels acknowledge that, the sport will continue to lose talented pitchers.

 

[cobb_of_fury]

I think that some of the problem is, no matter how many people say "movement kills" in pitching, their actions show otherwise. There are a LOT of very good movement pitchers who get overlooked because they aren't throwing 60+, even though they can often be more effective than a barn burner. Those girls get frustrated. My DD is a pretty talented movement pitcher, throwing upper mid 50's with a great rise ball and change up. She manhandled Indiana Prospects 99 last year, generating pop ups and dribblers, until our defense fell apart in their last at bats. She has performed very well against some high level teams, but has always been overlooked and discounted because she is not a flame thrower. That fact alone, is a big hit to a kid's confidence. Now, she no longer wants to pitch and only does it in HS because we have nobody else. Yes, speed is nice, but will eventually get hit and until coaches at all levels acknowledge that, the sport will continue to lose talented pitchers.

TRU DAT!!^^^

This has frustraited me (As a pitchers dad) - My daughter has continued to be successful pitcher since 10U but we have gone to several tryouts where they have told her "We like your bat and fielding but don't need you as a pitcher - we only want girls who can throw x mph" She then shut them down next time we faced them.
She had a realization the other day and said " You know, there will always be girls who throw faster than me - or have more pitches than me but I'm a good pitcher because I know how to pitch, I know what to throw and am not afraid for a girl to hit a ball - cause i know it's going to be a grounder to my third baseman or a pop up to the outfielders - and I know they'll make the play" This was the closest shes ever been to bragging and frankly I was happy to hear it after 5 years of pitching.

 

[coachjwb]

Spartans ... I agree completely, and in fact pointed out the same issue as part of what has changed back in the "where have all the pitchers gone" thread ...

http://www.thesoftballzone.com/showthread.php?9387-Where-have-all-the-Pitchers-gone

 

[spartansd]

you play to WIN the game! you don't play just to play.... you play to WIN THE GAME! ( just as Herm Edwards said!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMk5sMHj58I


Games are played to WIN. nobody is going to join a team that isn't trying to WIN. This isn't everybody gets a trophy!!! That has hurt our youth more than any other movement in youth sports. Lets give EVERYONE a trophy.... that's what this sounds like. poor pitchers........ pitching limitations?? sorry but i don't like it!

A good coach measures a teams success and failure using data and stats that lead to winning play but must be very careful to use if you won or loss as the end measuring stick. Now at the professional level yes you can use winning and losing as the ultimate measuring stick. But at the youth levels and even HS you should be setting up a system that measures progress and development and of course you always play to win. But if you set winning as your measuring stick then you have removed your ability to have teaching moments in a win. Because you as a coach have already made it clear if we win we did it right and if we lose we did it wrong. So to try to circle back and change that would send a message to your players that no matter what we are gonna get drilled by the coach. And while you can often get boys to play for you under those conditions (not always though) most girls will eventually turn you off and or quit.



The idea that if you win you are doing it right leads to cheating and the ability to justify cheating. Because you have given yourself an easy out. Hey I coach to win and anything that leads to that end is justified.


There is even a Movie called " When the Game Stands Tall" that discusses this very point.

And the coach at De La Salle has even written a book discussing this very point. That winning is a by product of doing things the right way. And that his own program went sideways when they starting saying doing things the right was was a by product of winning. In other words if winning is your ultimate measuring stick you will lose your way. And lose focus on the end goal. They do not set winning as a goal each game. But set up measurables of how they play and execute.

BTW Herm Edwards coaches Pro football. Completely different discussion. And he has also never been considered one of the greatest coaches to live. So you may want to pick a better example.

There is absolutely zero chance anyone can convince me that using winning and losing as the end measuring stick is the proper way to go about things at the youth level. And likely my points above you will read as I am some liberal tree hugger that wants everyone to get a trophy. That could not be further from the truth.

 

[coachjwb]

Dan ... with all due respect, this has nothing to do with not playing to win and the whole lets give everyone a trophy phenomena ... this has everything to do with developing more pitchers for the future and, perhaps to a lesser extent, with overuse injuries and/or the long-term effects physical effects. At least 10U and 12U ball (and probably 14U as well) should be more about development and less about winning for the long-term good of the players and the game.

Note that I did not say it has to do with making everyone feel good about themselves ... at least part of the problem today is that some of the coaches riding #1's are just trying to feel better about themselves and their win/loss records ...

 

[cobb_of_fury]

you play to WIN the game! you don't play just to play.... you play to WIN THE GAME! ( just as Herm Edwards said!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMk5sMHj58I


Games are played to WIN. nobody is going to join a team that isn't trying to WIN. This isn't everybody gets a trophy!!! That has hurt our youth more than any other movement in youth sports. Lets give EVERYONE a trophy.... that's what this sounds like. poor pitchers........ pitching limitations?? sorry but i don't like it!

I agree with Spartan - It's not about winning (Winning is the prize for executing the plays correctly) The winning for these girls is to have had a successful career and achieve their goals

This reminded me of a story I related here before; We had two guys coaching at Rec 8U coach pitch that found if they taught the girls to tomahawk chop the ball they could pitch the ball head level and the girls would always hit to the outfield over the infielders - They Won a ton of games like this, the parents were happy and they had a great season
BUT ... The next year when they moved up to Girl pitch not one of those girls had any idea how to hit and the parents were P.O.ed.
It was winning at the expense of training proper exacution. To often teams get caught up in this and miss the bigger picture.
Winning at 10U or 12U at the expense of proper training is like using all your energy to win one inning of a 7 inning game -

 

[Louuuuu]

There are a LOT of very good movement pitchers who get overlooked because they aren't throwing 60+

Agree 100% !

And yet, at tryouts, we always see coaches with radar guns on the pitchers, but never standing behind the catcher to see the ball dance.

 

[DanMaz]

coach - no problem but to add limitations just for the reason to try and get more pitchers in the game..... might as well have limitations for all positions then. catchers can only catch for 2 innings so the other catcher can play too. SS only can play SS for 2 innings etc... why single out pitchers?

how about if your not good enough practice more and be patient! Pitchers are doing more work on their own (or should be) than a travel coach can do to develop them other than giving them more game time. Every year more teams pop up (the watered down syndrome) which means more pitchers are actually playing this great game; not less.

heck the NFL doesn't have enough great qb's so why not limit their playing time too so the lesser talented ones can get more game time... just doesn't make sense UNLESS it is for a reason say like the boys do because if they don't their arms will basically fall off. There is no reason girl pitchers should have any limitations.
all teams / coaches are different in their approach. Personally I want 2-3 pitchers that are not the same type pitchers. A lefty with movement, a righty with gas and a mixed righty that has a little different release or whatever. Then as a coach I can use them as needed and can easily keep the other team off balance by throwing 2 or 3 pitchers in a game. Some coaches try to ride their #1 all season...(ego problem) if you are a pitcher on that team and not the #1, then I guess next season you go find a different team!! lol

 

[DanMaz]

I agree with Spartan - It's not about winning (Winning is the prize for executing the plays correctly) The winning for these girls is to have had a successful career and achieve their goals

This reminded me of a story I related here before; We had two guys coaching at Rec 8U coach pitch that found if they taught the girls to tomahawk chop the ball they could pitch the ball head level and the girls would always hit to the outfield over the infielders - They Won a ton of games like this, the parents were happy and they had a great season
BUT ... The next year when they moved up to Girl pitch not one of those girls had any idea how to hit and the parents were P.O.ed.
It was winning at the expense of training proper exacution. To often teams get caught up in this and miss the bigger picture.
Winning at 10U or 12U at the expense of proper training is like using all your energy to win one inning of a 7 inning game -

sounds like this should be a rule in rec ball - not travel ball.

 

[Pacerdad57]

I think that some of the problem is, no matter how many people say "movement kills" in pitching, their actions show otherwise. There are a LOT of very good movement pitchers who get overlooked because they aren't throwing 60+, even though they can often be more effective than a barn burner. Those girls get frustrated. My DD is a pretty talented movement pitcher, throwing upper mid 50's with a great rise ball and change up. She manhandled Indiana Prospects 99 last year, generating pop ups and dribblers, until our defense fell apart in their last at bats. She has performed very well against some high level teams, but has always been overlooked and discounted because she is not a flame thrower. That fact alone, is a big hit to a kid's confidence. Now, she no longer wants to pitch and only does it in HS because we have nobody else. Yes, speed is nice, but will eventually get hit and until coaches at all levels acknowledge that, the sport will continue to lose talented pitchers.

seeing this same thing happen to my DD. has great rotation, really good movement, but is just not a speed pitcher. throws low to mid 50's, gets lots of pop ups and grounders, may 2-4 k's a game. you are correct that a lot of coaches see this and think no way i want the flame thrower with one pitch, and like you said they eventually get lit up. it's a pretty vicious circle at times.
and unlike danmaz inferred, this is not a feel good everyone should get a trophy. i thought we were trying to reason out why the number of pitchers is thinning out. has nothing to do with winning or trophies. of course everyone wants to win, but if you don't get the circle time (and there are a lot of very capable girls that could pitch and do quite well), you aren't going to survive as a pitcher and then we will have an even thinner field to pick from.
injuries from overuse can and do occur when pitching softball, incorrect mechanics can exacerbate this problem. pitch limits do nothing more than allow more girls circle time which is beneficial to the girls and their teams because it gains a larger number of girls the all important experience time in the circle. the more experience gained the better all of the pitchers can get rather than limiting a team to one real pitcher and riding that horse until it drops.
i just see it as a way to better the pool and eventually the talent level of fastpitch here in Ohio. jmho

 

[DanMaz]

you will never convince me that girls fastpitch needs limitation on pitching time! and you still play to win and can use 2-3 pitchers with that same strategy!! If I am playing checkers vs. my kids... I play to win! I always play to win! doesn't mean I don't develop players or teach the game or create a good environment for my players... it doesn't mean I "go all out" "cheat" "do whatever it takes" etc... so don't assume something you don't know for sure. The ultimate goal of playing any game is to win. Yeah yeah,,... you also teach and coach and develop players at the same time. Do you think playing to win means you don't? Great coaches can do the same and develop players and use more than 1 pitcher!! Heck I would be afraid to use 1 pitcher knowing any good team after 2nd time thru the batting order is going to hit your #1 most of the time so you need to keep them off balanced with more pitchers. Sounds like some coaches don't understand this yet.

BOTH my DD's were pitchers at one time so I do understand this as a pitchers dad. But I think you are talking about probably less than half the teams out there with this "problem" because almost every team we play has 2-3 pitchers on their team. both in 14u and 16u. I don't see many teams that use just 1 pitcher.

Where are all these teams with a #1 pitcher that hog up 75%+ of their innings? To be fair ... when you say lets limit pitcher times so all the #2 and #3 and #4 pitchers get to see time on the mound, that just sounds like the poor me syndrome..... same thing as everyone gets a trophy syndrome. that's just how I read it I guess and that's where the Herm Edwards thing came up. DA! I know he coached football and I know it is not the same as fastpitch. Who doesn't? lol BUT just because Herm wasn't the BEST coach Spartans doesn't mean he doesn't have some good thoughts about it and it doesn't mean I coach like him either. lol I don't need to circle back on anything. I still think you play any game to WIN IT.