Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Pitching Limitation Rules...A Modest Proposal

[BouldersDad]

I think the issue is deeper than this.

In my opinion much of the issue has to do with moving the mound back to 43 feet. That has had an effect that I did not see coming but I think is very real. Girls that could compete and be affective from 40 feet at 14U now get drilled. So instead of sticking with it they are just dropping it. From 40 feet some decent velocity and spotting a pitch or two could make you a good pitcher. But now that we are at 43 feet these same pitchers get lit up. And the coaches also give them the message that they are not good enough. So instead of having players stay in pitching and develop as they get bigger and stronger, they drop out. And the problem is manifesting itself at the 16U and 18U level.

Movement and velocity only get better as you get older and stronger. But the late developers are being driven out at 14U. And what makes matters worse is that the message or the perception is that the best pitchers will get recruited at 14U. So the message is that I need to move to a position and hit if I am not a top dog at 14U.

This is why I always prefer to discuss competing and not winning. I am not saying that you do not reward winning or that is not the goal. But if we can all agree that we cannot control winning we can only control effort and preparation, then we can agree that the real measure can not be winning. But if you make the measuring stick winning. Then the players will not be able to create a measuring stick of progress. It becomes a pass fail test. And if you get to many fails you decide this is not for me. So I think this moving back of the mound has created to much negative feedback to the marginal 14U pitchers and they bail. So at 16U the late bloomers are disappearing. Creating a issue now 5 years after the change.

I also agree that the riding of one pitcher at lower ages also contributes but this has always been an issue. So while that is a contributor it can not be the reason we are seeing a larger issue now. It has to be something else. And I think it was moving the mound back 3 feet. It was supposed to prepare pitchers better for college and also open up the game. But I think it has had a negative effect no one saw coming.

You nailed it. If you use the common sense approach to fix this you will find that what you changed last ( moving back 3 foot ) is what changed the game forever. Pitchers were moved back because lets face it offense sucked about 10 years ago. At that time it was advantage pitchers. With all the hitting instruction now I think you'll find a pretty nice balance between pitching and hitting.

I will throw about another common sense idea since we are discussing inning limitations on pitchers. Why not reduce the ball size from 12 to 11 inch. You want to talk about pitching speed and movement increase let them use a ball they can get their fingers around.


Tim

 

[Fairman]

I may be one of the few pitcher's dads that made sure there were at least 3 decent pitchers on any travel team that we considered joining. Maybe even 4 at the younger age groups. There are far to many repetitive stress injuries caused to pitchers by over use. One weekend can do your dd in. The only sure way to recover is complete rest with rehab. It is far better not to get hurt than to lose a full season just to pitch one more game on Sunday.

I saw a Coach forfeit the championship game at a major tournament on Sunday rather than ask his pitcher to throw one more game (injuries and schedule reduced his lineup) He took a lot of crap for the decision but he became a coach that I wanted my dd to play for.

Pitch limits are the answer that Little League Baseball has come up with but even they haven't extended the pitch counts to softball. So since this will take a long time to implement it will be up to the coaches, parents and players to impose their own limitations. Remember that when your dd is in rehab or surgery there will be no coach helping her, no fans, no glory in the recovery. It'll be her and you.

Protect your dd and do it now.

 

[brownsfan]

Before we go off and have the governing bodies step in, why can’t we as parents and coaches hold ourselves accountable for overuse? More importantly, slow these kids down. A lot of these kids need a much deserved break. Most have been playing multiple sports since 8 years old at the rec level at some point. As they get older, the seasons start to run into each other. Once in HS, there is no break. So yeah, limit the innings while letting the kids still not get a break and see what happens. Why don’t we limit their sports for their health? We don’t need the governing body to tell us how to use common sense.

I do agree in limiting innings, but not just at their position, but in the game period. My DD can play several positions and in the last couple of tourneys, she sat when she didn’t pitch. It drove her up the wall and I kept reminding her it’s because they’re resting you for nationals. She finally understood what was going on and when nationals came in, she was fresh.

As for the younger pitchers at 10U-13U, particularly as the #3/4 pitchers; blame can be spread. Coaches not pitching the girls; parents not supporting their kids in talking to the coaches about time in the circle, not making time out of their busy lives to work with them during the week, having them play so many sports and taking away the much needed time to work on their craft. When my dd started she also wanted to play sokker. I told her she couldn’t do both if she wanted to pitch, wasn’t fair to her or her team she pitched for. I heard and knew about the dedication it took in order for her to pitch after going a full year with my older daughter. So she didn’t play sokker and focused on developing her craft. She got better despite the odds. She heard it all, too short, not fast enough, etc all by 11U. She didn’t quit and when it was time for me to stick my nose into it, I did. A couple years later, she’s put herself into a position to realize her dreams. And as an FYI to those 10-12U coaches, dd is now second year 16U and NONE of the aces when dd was 10U is either no longer pitching, the 2-3 pitcher, or no longer pitching/playing for that same team.

 

[Fairman]

B-dad

I look at the length to their fingers of the size of the players hands when working with kids. If they have tiny hands and short fingers they will have a great deal of difficulty with pitching. I also check out their parents for indications of where genetics may take them. If they can't grip the ball properly, pitching will be very difficult.

I do think we move to the 12" ball way to early. We ask an 11 year old to grip the same ball we give to a college senior. It is unusual if she can wrap her definers around i so she learns poor mechanics just to throw the pumpkin. I'd like to see an 11" ball used up to and including 12U.

 

[Pacerdad57]

I think some people are losing perspective about the op. it was not about winning or losing or give everyone a trophy. it was about broadening the base of decent pitching in Ohio by giving circle time to more girls that are presently leaving the game. this has NOTHING to do with a handout or poor me syndrome. it has everything to do with keeping fastpitch in a better position to survive and flourish. a lot of the girls that are quitting pitching are WAY more than adequate, a lot of them could be damned good given the circle time to develop better mechanics and gain experience. it was about the thinning fields in pitching. the more you develop, keep interested in the game and give time to the bigger field everyone has to choose a pitcher from.
sure everyone likes to win, but everyone can't always win every game. it comes down to keeping kids in the game, keeping them enjoying what they are doing and keeping the desire of wanting to progress and be better burning within them. nothing drives a kid out of the game faster than working their butt off to get better, accomplishing this, and still be told she'll get no circle time, even though the kid may be as good or better than the perceived "horse".
i've seen it happen more than once with more than one kid.
i think it would be great if we could police it ourselves without involving the sanctioning bodies, but it apparently hasn't worked so well so far from what i'm reading about this post.

 

[spartansd]

Ok I am now seeing where you are coming from.

I agree that innings rules are not the best idea. Rules only really work with people who want to follow rules. You put in some limits and pretty soon you have kids knowing they will get to pitch and they may (mind you may) not work as hard to get better since they do not have to get better to get mound time. So just legislating this stuff does not work either.

And just to be clear. I am not saying anyone should not play to win. I am merely saying that part of the issue may be that without some type of positive feedback on a players performance, many will move on or quit. So to keep players developing you as a coach should have a system in place that measures progress that is outside of the win loss record. Since we are speaking of pitchers. I have many baseball junkies who think that MLB should remove the win loss record from pitchers. That it is such a poor measuring stick of how good a pitcher performed and it is a meaningless stat. They point out that the ERA or hits per at bat are much better. They point out that a SS is measured by batting average not if the team won or loss the game they started. I get it we are talking apples and oranges a bit but the point is still that a measure of a pitcher should be era not wins and losses.

So as a team you can discuss wins and losses. But maybe a pitcher did not give up an earned run. So she did her job. My point is that when analyzing a teams play and then projecting it down to each individual. You need to supply measurables to the players that make sense. Because on the flip side you can not say hey you guys played great after a loss but I am proud of how you played. And they look at you like you have 3 eyes because they know the difference between winning and losing. Rather say hey we as a team did not get it done. But you as a pitcher met your goals pitching. The team BA was 300 and we only had 2 errors. So we know we need to work on timely hitting or execution or making a play. My point was that there are ways even with the tougher pitching requirements for a 14U pitcher to keep it interesting and not drive her out of the game. The goal is to keep then working hard and keep it fun.

I am moving on now.

 

[DanMaz]

I think some people are losing perspective about the op. it was not about winning or losing or give everyone a trophy. it was about broadening the base of decent pitching in Ohio by giving circle time to more girls that are presently leaving the game. this has NOTHING to do with a handout or poor me syndrome. it has everything to do with keeping fastpitch in a better position to survive and flourish. a lot of the girls that are quitting pitching are WAY more than adequate, a lot of them could be damned good given the circle time to develop better mechanics and gain experience. it was about the thinning fields in pitching. the more you develop, keep interested in the game and give time to the bigger field everyone has to choose a pitcher from.
sure everyone likes to win, but everyone can't always win every game. it comes down to keeping kids in the game, keeping them enjoying what they are doing and keeping the desire of wanting to progress and be better burning within them. nothing drives a kid out of the game faster than working their butt off to get better, accomplishing this, and still be told she'll get no circle time, even though the kid may be as good or better than the perceived "horse".
i've seen it happen more than once with more than one kid.
i think it would be great if we could police it ourselves without involving the sanctioning bodies, but it apparently hasn't worked so well so far from what i'm reading about this post.

Then daddy just starts his own team and POOF!!! his DD is now getting the pitching time he wants her to have. I still would like to know the teams out there that only use a #1 pitcher or how many of them do this because I think (and might be wrong) but I think that there are a lot less teams out there in travel ball that use 1 pitcher compared to those that use 2 or 3. maybe start a poll to get better results?

 

[cobb_of_fury]

B-dad

I look at the length to their fingers of the size of the players hands when working with kids. If they have tiny hands and short fingers they will have a great deal of difficulty with pitching. I also check out their parents for indications of where genetics may take them. If they can't grip the ball properly, pitching will be very difficult.

I do think we move to the 12" ball way to early. We ask an 11 year old to grip the same ball we give to a college senior. It is unusual if she can wrap her definers around i so she learns poor mechanics just to throw the pumpkin. I'd like to see an 11" ball used up to and including 12U.

I agree with this - Were asking an 11 year old to not only move back 5ft but to use a ball thats almost 10% bigger. we could save the 12" ball for 14U (middle school / Highschool ball)

I still think a big part of the problem is not lack of girls wanting to pitch but in teams developing pitchers.

I was at a tryout for a schowcase 14U team earlier this month there had to be 20 pitchers out of the 40 some girls who tried out (and almost as many catchers) so they are out there.

I don't understand why teams dont have 3 or 4 pitchers on the roster - a 1A and 1B and one or two developing.

My daughters team last year had 5 girls who saw circle time they had varying degrees of success from very good to serviceable.

 

[coachtomv]

TRU DAT!!^^^

This has frustraited me (As a pitchers dad) - My daughter has continued to be successful pitcher since 10U but we have gone to several tryouts where they have told her "We like your bat and fielding but don't need you as a pitcher - we only want girls who can throw x mph" She then shut them down next time we faced them.
She had a realization the other day and said " You know, there will always be girls who throw faster than me - or have more pitches than me but I'm a good pitcher because I know how to pitch, I know what to throw and am not afraid for a girl to hit a ball - cause i know it's going to be a grounder to my third baseman or a pop up to the outfielders - and I know they'll make the play" This was the closest shes ever been to bragging and frankly I was happy to hear it after 5 years of pitching.

These posts are my kid to a tee also. She is 13, 54-55 fastball, nasty drop curve at same speed, ridiculous change about 40, a rise that was just starting to develop like her curve, ton of movement. Now she wants to stick with pitching only in HS and focus on her other skills. She feels that she will never be taking seriously as a short, junk ball pitcher. The fact that she is also a speedy (2.7 to 1st) middle infielder with home run power makes it tough for coaches to use her at pitcher, they see the pure athlete part and lack of size as a pitcher. She also generates a ton of easy defensive outs and is a nasty defender on the mound. It sucks to see the potential and be left wondering where it could lead to, but instead its on the shelf. After a few years of busting your butt to only be dismissed compared to taller, and not always faster, pitchers, it gets old and they tend to get discouraged after a time. We are hoping after a time away, she'll get back to it, but that's up to her.

Thanks for posting, lol.

 

[Pacerdad57]

Then daddy just starts his own team and POOF!!! his DD is now getting the pitching time he wants her to have. I still would like to know the teams out there that only use a #1 pitcher or how many of them do this because I think (and might be wrong) but I think that there are a lot less teams out there in travel ball that use 1 pitcher compared to those that use 2 or 3. maybe start a poll to get better results?

ONCE AGAIN, LOSING PERSPECTIVE ON THE OP. not about daddy ball, yes my DD pitches, but likes playing other positions as much if not more. no way would i stick myself into that kind of situation to start a daddyball team just so my DD could get the circle time. like i said before, everything must be earned or it is of no value. i have seen numerous teams, NSA, ASA that will stick with one pitcher for 70% of the innings of a tourney then wonder why they are getting blasted, it's out there, it happens. as an aside it is WAY more prevalent in school board to the point of some teams not even carrying more than 1 pitcher. some can handle it some can't, some wish they could show what they've got.
anyway i'm thinking i'm moving on now with spartansd. we all have our opinion, we're all entitled to it, and open discussion can only better the sport.

 

[coachtomv]

B-dad

I look at the length to their fingers of the size of the players hands when working with kids. If they have tiny hands and short fingers they will have a great deal of difficulty with pitching. I also check out their parents for indications of where genetics may take them. If they can't grip the ball properly, pitching will be very difficult.

I do think we move to the 12" ball way to early. We ask an 11 year old to grip the same ball we give to a college senior. It is unusual if she can wrap her definers around i so she learns poor mechanics just to throw the pumpkin. I'd like to see an 11" ball used up to and including 12U.

Totally disagree with this. Your telling a kid, hey you can't pitch with small hands and short parents. BS. My kid and her parents are exactly as you just described and that was not what is standing in her way as a pitcher, its the BS mentality that there is somehow a cookie cutter frame work that pitchers need to fall into, or any position for that matter. What about lefty's, larger girls, whatever.

Don't overlook special, just because it does not fit the mold. And who says what that is anyways.

Sorry for the rant, hit a soft spot on that one. No disrespect intended, just disagree wholeheartedly.

 

[DanMaz]

ONCE AGAIN, LOSING PERSPECTIVE ON THE OP. not about daddy ball, yes my DD pitches, but likes playing other positions as much if not more. no way would i stick myself into that kind of situation to start a daddyball team just so my DD could get the circle time. like i said before, everything must be earned or it is of no value. i have seen numerous teams, NSA, ASA that will stick with one pitcher for 70% of the innings of a tourney then wonder why they are getting blasted, it's out there, it happens. as an aside it is WAY more prevalent in school board to the point of some teams not even carrying more than 1 pitcher. some can handle it some can't, some wish they could show what they've got.
anyway i'm thinking i'm moving on now with spartansd. we all have our opinion, we're all entitled to it, and open discussion can only better the sport.

not losing perspective at all... just commenting about how things work when some daddy's (a lot) DD don't pitch, then they start their own team. Didn't mean you do that but many many do. lol and if you see teams use 1 pitcher 70% of the time to only have her get blasted... then blame the coach because he doesn't understand how to keep the offensive off-balance good discussion but still don't like limitations. Its the coaches job to coach the team with some type of strategy using more than 1 pitcher for sure!!!.

 

[longball00]

IMO I disagree with one aspect mentioned in this entire post. Teams do not develop a pitcher. The pitcher, a parent, and a pitching coach develop a pitcher. My DD is a pitcher, and the amount of work she puts in with me and her instructor is crazy. No team has that kind of time to develop a pitcher, it is up to the individual. The team coaches should be responsible to know what pitches are working that day, and call the pitches if they do not let their catcher, monitor her pitch count, and decide if a switch needs to be made. As for circle time, that is on them as well.

 

[coachtomv]

I do agree with Dan that if coaches simply use true softball strategy, then over/under use of pitchers takes care of itself.

I too, like many, want 3 pitchers with different styles if possible. When this has happened, we were more successful, when riding one pitcher you burn her out, show the defense your hand, and also don't get the other pitchers ready when needed either. Also leads to overuse injuries and the under development of the other player(s).

There are many teams that use one pitcher 70% and are also reluctant to pull her when she has been "figured" out. Several bigger name teams are known for this and will have to adjust more as the hitters continue to catch up to the pitcher. If its your DD, then you should want her to get a break(mentally and physically) and play this game as long as she can with confidence.

 

[Fairman]

Coach Tom

I didn't say they couldn't pitch and I didn't say anything about the height of the parents.

I meant to say that if the player has small hands and short fingers they will have great deal of difficulty gripping the ball. As youngsters, if they are not genetically inclined to larger fingers/hands so that their finger tips might be able to wrap the seams they will find spinning the ball exceedingly difficult and perhaps other positions should be explored so she doesn't leave the game in frustration.

One of the best pitchers in WPA didn't break 5' but her hand could engulf the ball and she threw it at over 25RPS. She went onto be the ace of a D-1 program. Height had nothing to do with it. She could spin the ball and make it dance.

 

[FastBat]

Why not reduce the ball size from 12 to 11 inch. You want to talk about pitching speed and movement increase let them use a ball they can get their fingers around.
Tim

My 10 year old dd switched to the 12 inch ball, early last spring (april?), she's a pretty small kid. She actually almost stopped pitching altogether, but joined a rec team, which needed pitchers. The 12 inch ball is what saved her, for some reason, she threw harder and her movement pitches actually had movement on them. She loves pitching with that bigger ball, it has always just agreed with her. She was selected for her local all-star team over the past summer, and had to use the small 11 inch ball again, which was very hard for her to adjust to and she wasn't as effective. Her team made it to the state championship, she was able to pitch fine or mediocre, but once she started pitching with the big 12 inch ball again from further away she seems to be much more effective and better all around! She may be the exception to the rule, who knows? But, I'm sure there are other kids that look better pitching that bigger ball too.

Fairman- I do believe my dd has unusually large hands for her size. Lol! Maybe there is some connection?

 

[brownsfan]

My 10 year old dd switched to the 12 inch ball, early last spring (april?), she's a pretty small kid. She actually almost stopped pitching altogether, but joined a rec team, which needed pitchers. The 12 inch ball is what saved her, for some reason, she threw harder and her movement pitches actually had movement on them. She loves pitching with that bigger ball, it has always just agreed with her. She was selected for her local all-star team over the past summer, and had to use the small 11 inch ball again, which was very hard for her to adjust to and she wasn't as effective. Her team made it to the state championship, she was able to pitch fine or mediocre, but once she started pitching with the big 12 inch ball again from further away she seems to be much more effective and better all around! She may be the exception to the rule, who knows? But, I'm sure there are other kids that look better pitching that bigger ball too.

Makes sense. If I recall correctly, the reason why the 12" ball moves more is more surface area for air resistence. It was on Sports Science special I saw.

 

[coachtomv]

Coach Tom

I didn't say they couldn't pitch and I didn't say anything about the height of the parents.

I meant to say that if the player has small hands and short fingers they will have great deal of difficulty gripping the ball. As youngsters, if they are not genetically inclined to larger fingers/hands so that their finger tips might be able to wrap the seams they will find spinning the ball exceedingly difficult and perhaps other positions should be explored so she doesn't lead the game in frustration.

One of the best pitchers in WPA didn't break 5' but her hand could engulf the ball and she threw it at over 25RPS. She went onto be the ace of a D-1 program. Height had nothing to do with it. She could spin the ball and make it dance.

Gotcha. Still disagree with hand size is a reason to stop before starting or as a critique, so as not to leave in frustration. My DD's instructor is Alanna Barker, DI player, 4x HS champ, small hands, great spin. My DD is only 13 and has tiny hands, but puts a ton of spin on it and the ball is not going to get bigger, but if I follow your line of thinking she should probably not pitch because she may not be successful as she develops and may get frustrated, lol.
Does this also mean that she would be even better with larger hands, who knows I guess. Maybe she has simply learned to play with what she has and maximized it.

I understand what your trying to say, just disagree that its a factor in every case and be careful that we are not the ones frustrating talented kids by comparing hand sizes and such as a be all end all.

This line of thinking is exactly why she has stepped away from pitching, being judged largely on measurables instead of actually watching the players play and review actual results.

Like 5' 9" Doug Flutie once said when asked about the 6' 5" blue chip QB in camp, "Potential is a dangerous word". Don't put potential over production and these kids will surprise you sometimes when we give them a chance.

Don't find more reasons for them not to do it, remove obstacles and stop thinking like there is one script to success. This might lead to a few more gifted players sticking with pitching just a little longer.

 

[FastBat]

IMO I disagree with one aspect mentioned in this entire post. Teams do not develop a pitcher. The pitcher, a parent, and a pitching coach develop a pitcher. My DD is a pitcher, and the amount of work she puts in with me and her instructor is crazy. No team has that kind of time to develop a pitcher, it is up to the individual. The team coaches should be responsible to know what pitches are working that day, and call the pitches if they do not let their catcher, monitor her pitch count, and decide if a switch needs to be made. As for circle time, that is on them as well.

Agree, pitcher's are developed in the off season. They aren't developed during games, or based on the amount of mound time, especially at younger ages. That's why I think, show me a great pitcher and there will be a dedicated adult (Mom, Dad, Neighbor, etc.) alongside them!

 

[wow]

IMO I disagree with one aspect mentioned in this entire post. Teams do not develop a pitcher. The pitcher, a parent, and a pitching coach develop a pitcher. My DD is a pitcher, and the amount of work she puts in with me and her instructor is crazy. No team has that kind of time to develop a pitcher, it is up to the individual. The team coaches should be responsible to know what pitches are working that day, and call the pitches if they do not let their catcher, monitor her pitch count, and decide if a switch needs to be made. As for circle time, that is on them as well.

Was waiting on this post. Let me add work ethic AGAIN. Having a pitching coach is not enough. What you do on your off time is as important if not more important! What about strength conditioning? What about the mental part of the game? What books has your kid read on the mental part of pitching? Any speed and agility in your schedule? Being a total athlete committed to pitching and getting better is what keeps the lack of pitchers from developing and getting better to play at the older levels.. Pitching is a commitment and you will have to sacrifice. A lot of kids today don't want that type of commitment to pitching, for a number of reasons, and therefore don't develop and leads to reduction of quality pitchers.

Of course you need depth at pitching 3+ is critical, so this is a no brainer.