Pitching and Pitchers Discussion Pitching Times

[default]

I use Revfire and while I seldom worry about spin with young pitchers I still use it to keep them intersted. I really like the Revfire and have had it for 2-3 seasons but I may invest in the little radar gun to carry with me to the park instead of my stopwatch.

Spin is very important and I'm striving to get parents to quit putting as much faith in the fastball as a way to judge a pitcher's worth but it's hard to break old habits. It's the same for hitting. Many people believe just because a hitter knocks one over the fence that they can do it any time they want so instead of playing the .600 hitter, they leave the .100 hitter in the line up thinking that BIG hit could come at any time. Drives me nutz. lol

I encourage pitchers at 14u level to have at least 1 spin pitch ready to go along with a fastball for the needed strike and a change up, still one of the most successful pitches in the game. Now if we can get coaches to call the spin pitches so they can use what they have practiced, we'll all have leeped into the 21st century. lol.

DD's former pitching coach (before being promoted and relocated) preached to me about spin when she was 10. I thought the same way about speed until last season. I bought one last fall and use it as a tool to measure out her average rps bi-weekly along with speed. I'm glad I took her advise when I did.

 

[default]

Mine is specific to the younger ages (thru 12u)...and if top 10 or 20 are hitting the numbers originally posted, let's say in Ohio,....and guessing there are (and I hate to guess) 100 teams in any one age group in travel ball alone...well...I guess his numbers/percentages are realistic just as the one link you posted had suggested as well. I was looking at his total list of ranges as well as his elite status and the fact that we have faced this ourselves in our years of 10u-12u. And we had 2 girls throwing consistantly low 50's all year. I guess it depends upon the pond you play in...

I also know that maaaany never even break 50 till they are in high school if ever.

I understand Sammy's point of the speeds being unrealistic but in the games we have been exposed to it is real on a regular basis. Again, not the norm as mentioned by others but is when your schedule is very tough like many in the tougher orgs go for. Seen some nasty pitchers throwing 46-51 at 12u with incredible control, spin, and off speeds work over some good teams as well. Love seeing a change up come in about 10 mph slower than the fastball or drop ball.

It's for sure not all about speed and many know this. Thanks for the data you posted. I've seen that link before, I believe here on OFC and I had saved it in my bookmarks. Good stuff.

Are you kidding me? You blew my original stat's and speed post up with sarcasim as you did in this post. I posted a website that supported my claim, as well as anyone else's claim that your numbers where unrealistic....well WE knew what WE were talking about and you were throwing numbers out there like the link said. Like a coach or parent or whatever without having anything to back it up. Now when it's all said and done we're dealing with someone that is in the 12u age group and throwing out pitching speed numbers.:lmao: LET ME TELL YOU......"I understand Sammy's point of the speeds being unrealistic but in the games we have been exposed to it is real on a regular basis." NOT HAPPENING at 12u. You need to get a little seasoning under you belt.

 

[default]

I have to also agree with these times from vikingsix. He stated that these were pitching practice times of very good pitchers. This is not game speed. Average speed is just that. The speed average for the worst of the worst and the most elite. If you play good competition at 12u in Ohio and western PA you are gouing to see some good pitching in the low 50's on average. That is because these travel ball pitchers are not average. They are well beyond that. There are many average high school pitchers that could only dream about the amount of practice the truly committed 12u pitcher puts in.

 

[default]

With all due respect to some of those who have posted here believing the higher speeds, you're either kidding yourselves or your DD's pitching coach is taking you for a ride. Yes, there are a few elite pitchers out there in each age group who are hitting those kinds of speeds, but they aren't anywhere close to averages. If someone tells you your DD is throwing that speed, ask to see the gun yourself ... and make sure the gun reading was taken from a still position directly behind the catcher. And if it still shows anything close to 60, make sure that it accidentally didn't pick up a semi going down a nearby freeway.

 

[default]

At the NFCA camp held at Stingrays I calculated the first column fastball speeds of 94 pitchers and came up with a 57 mph average. These are some of the better pitchers you will see in Ohio, and although I don't know what all age brackets were there I would be willing to bet that most were 14U eligible or above

This being said...if you took all the age appropriate pitchers in Ohio and averaged all them together, the averages would be well below the first pieces of data. If you were at a showcase tourney I think it is fair to say that the crop would be a little better and you may see average speeds close to those higher numbers...but that is not the norm either or an accurate calculation of Ohio as a whole.

The one nice thing about statistics is that they can be manipulated in any number of ways to prove your point!!

 

[default]

From the RevFire websight:

*High School data from National Fastpitch Coaches Association (NFCA) recruiting camps.

GENERAL GUIDELINE FOR JUNIOR & SENIOR YEAR HIGH SCHOOL PITCHERS*:
SPIN RATE (RPS)
17.0 ? 18.9 Average
19.0 - 21.9 Good
22.0 and more Excellent

*This guideline is for high school pitchers without RevFire based training.


BREAKING BALL SPIN RATE GUIDELINE FOR DIVISION I COLLEGE FASTPITCH SOFTBALL:
SPIN RATE (RPS)
20.0 - 21.9 Average
22.0 - 24.9 Good
25.0 and up Excellent

 

[default]

I'll bite, but I'm sure i will catch some flack as this subject seems to always be a hot topic. Just remember, there are many factors involved here (example- if you have a 5ft 10inch kid, she should be throwing 57+ even if she is only 11 years old ....might be a little wild, but she should still be able to bring it because of her size). Also, the numbers that I am listing are "top speeds", something you would see at a pitching lesson, not necessarily what is thrown in the game when a girl is trying to locate a pitch.

9u (40-44 mph good; 45+ elite)
10u (45-48 mph good; 48+ elite)
11u (46-48 mph good- remember they just move back 5 more ft and have a bigger ball; 48+ elite)
12u (48-53 mph good; 53+ elite)
13u (52-55 mph good; 55+ elite)
14u (55-58 mph good; 59+ elite)
I've been told that hitting 60 (again as a top speed, not an average) as an 8th grader is what these girls should be striving for.

Before I reply to your last comments...I want to post a follow-up note from the link you provided. The numbers that the article point out are for BEGINNER PITCHERS, note that in the section posted in the link below. So, from that context, the numbers can surely be viewed as way off and I will surely agree from that point of view only. But, from an advanced pitchers capabilities, my statements are in line with my experiences and mutiple replies. http://www.pitchsoftball.com/default.asp

I must be wrong too....

Since these numbers are so wrong, and I hate to pull your opinion or facts out, do tell what they should be. I will say that top 10 or even top 20 teams in OH are hitting these numbers on a very regular basis so maybe your context is different. Please let us know.

I'll buy this as sarcastic but wouldn't call it a blow up, maybe a small tremor of a blow up, but I filter things differently than you.

And, my context was thrown out but not in enough detail I guess.

You also failed to mention all the other comments in that same post, doesn't matter.

Are you kidding me? You blew my original stat's and speed post up with sarcasim as you did in this post. I posted a website that supported my claim, as well as anyone else's claim that your numbers where unrealistic....well WE knew what WE were talking about and you were throwing numbers out there like the link said. Like a coach or parent or whatever without having anything to back it up. Now when it's all said and done we're dealing with someone that is in the 12u age group and throwing out pitching speed numbers.:lmao: LET ME TELL YOU......"I understand Sammy's point of the speeds being unrealistic but in the games we have been exposed to it is real on a regular basis." NOT HAPPENING at 12u. You need to get a little seasoning under you belt.

I'm not here to kid anyone, at least to your replies. I do plenty of joking around. Your right, I can't back up anything, you seem to know me really well. I like how this post doesn't include the 12u information because you say more seasoning is needed (or course that was directed only at me). Not sure when you left 12u (rhetorical), but its pretty important these days with our schedule to determine different pitching abilities as others have stated. From my limited experience, man, some of these young ladies have above abnormal capabilities for their lack of tenure. You know, it's funny how it works, nothing like scouting teams and come back to the team and set them up to fail (sarcastic for sure). We've been stating opposing DD throwing let's say 45 or 55 or XX mph (with whatever off speed), and with whatever location capability... and of course add or subtract mph's so we can mess them up. Yup, that's me. :cap:.

I was clear on saying I can't speak beyond 12u. And I can see both sides of the argument which is ok in my mind. Not ok in your mind that I can see Sammy's point and do understand that the top end or elite pitchers may only be one per weekend or sometimes several in one day but it sure did happen at the Danger Tournament, Lasers tournament, ASA States, and Nationals. I'm just a 12u coach moving up to the next age bracket so what do I know? I haven't seen anything yet and we shouldn't be talking about this sorta stuff with the lil' ones...

You don't know where we've been and who've we've played and what gives you the right to start "discounting" someone's level(s) or age bracket discussions when the topic was opened for all to reply to. I've never claimed to be an all-Amercian coach but surely know how to obtain accurate data within my means. If you can't debate about this and take some sarcasm, well, now I know. Not a sarcastic response but I really don't know that you will believe that and I'm not here to convice you further.

There are plenty of folks here that see both sides of this topic and have various levels of tenure or exposure to the many levels of fastpitch. Maybe you and I are in different positions in experience, maybe not. I guess my final point is you went after the original post and said the numbers were not even close and now I'm looking back and I'm "guessing" it's a context issue for you and I and yes sarcasm is part of this discussion at times. If I wanted to blow it up, I would have done a better job of making a better mess of it.

 

[default]

Before I reply to your last comments...I want to post a follow-up note from the link you provided. The numbers that the article point out are for BEGINNER PITCHERS, note that in the section posted in the link below. So, from that context, the numbers can surely be viewed as way off and I will surely agree from that point of view only. But, from an advanced pitchers capabilities, my statements are in line with my experiences and mutiple replies. http://www.pitchsoftball.com/default.asp



I'll buy this as sarcastic but wouldn't call it a blow up, maybe a small tremor of a blow up, but I filter things differently than you.

And, my context was thrown out but not in enough detail I guess.

You also failed to mention all the other comments in that same post, doesn't matter.




I'm not here to kid anyone, at least to your replies. I do plenty of joking around. Your right, I can't back up anything, you seem to know me really well. I like how this post doesn't include the 12u information because you say more seasoning is needed (or course that was directed only at me). Not sure when you left 12u (rhetorical), but its pretty important these days with our schedule to determine different pitching abilities as others have stated. From my limited experience, man, some of these young ladies have above abnormal capabilities for their lack of tenure. You know, it's funny how it works, nothing like scouting teams and come back to the team and set them up to fail (sarcastic for sure). We've been stating opposing DD throwing let's say 45 or 55 or XX mph (with whatever off speed), and with whatever location capability... and of course add or subtract mph's so we can mess them up. Yup, that's me. :cap:.

I was clear on saying I can't speak beyond 12u. And I can see both sides of the argument which is ok in my mind. Not ok in your mind that I can see Sammy's point and do understand that the top end or elite pitchers may only be one per weekend or sometimes several in one day but it sure did pahhen at the Danger Tournament, Lasers tournament, ASA States, and Nationals. I'm just a 12u coach moving up to the next age bracket so what do I know? I haven't seen anything yet and we shouldn't be talking about this sorta stuff with the lil' ones...

You don't know where we've been and who've we've played and what gives you the right to start "discounting" someone's level(s) or age bracket discussions when the topic was opened for all to reply to. I've never claimed to be an all-Amercian coach but surely know how to obtain accurate data within my means. If you can't debate about this and take some sarcasm, well, now I know. Not a sarcastic response but I really don't know that you will believe that and I'm not here to convice you further.

There are plenty of folks here that see both sides of this topic and have various levels of tenure or exposure to the many levels of fastpitch. Maybe you and I are in different positions in experience, maybe not. I guess my final point is you went after the original post and said the numbers were not even close and now I'm looking back and I'm "guessing" it's a context issue for you and I and yes sarcasm is part of this discussion at times. If I wanted to blow it up, I would have done a better job of making a better mess of it.

Ditto, Les. And, I don't want your job.
nac

 

[default]

Ditto, Les. And, I don't want your job.
nac

Thanks... and when it becomes a job... I QUIT!

 

[default]

If someone tells you your DD is throwing that speed, ask to see the gun yourself ... and make sure the gun reading was taken from a still position directly behind the catcher.

This is very true. My dd's pitching coach takes the reading from behind left of the catcher and showes you the speed everytime. We were talking about speeds from other pitchers and stuff and he showed me how you can inflate speeds. He proceeded to move up about 20 feet from my dd and use the radar gun on her. Her speeds were 3 to 5 mph faster then were they were from behind the catcher. Also we tried the old punch the gun out as the ball travels to the catcher and this too makes the reading higher. So if you want a true reading stay behind the catcher and dont move the gun.

 

[default]

If the title was top "game speeds" the numbers would drop 4-7mph...;&

Exactly!! that is why I put that these were "top speeds" something you would see at a pitching lesson- not when a girl is trying to locate a pitch.

I knew i would catch some flack :lmao:

 

[default]

our latest trouble maker you are...

 

[default]

That's because they aren't everywhere. There is a small, small handful of pitchers at 10, or 11 years old that can actually throw 50+, but in nearly every case they are 5'-8" and 160#. Most of those young girls are nearly adult size and from what I've seen, once the smaller, averaged size, girls close the size gap a little their speed also catches up. Sometimes it's just a matter of size, strength and physics.

This is my experience as well. And pitcher's parents are crazy!

 

[default]

Viking ... I think Lester was actually kidding on that point ... while there is a difference between top speed and average or consistent speed, the speed should not drop in a game situation as the result of trying to locate a pitch. Every pitch thrown in a lesson should be to a spot, and throwing to spot does not impact speed, unless the pitcher is in effect "aiming" and coming out of her normal motion for some reason. That is a common mistake by new pitchers or sometimes even coaches or parents who don't know better, but every pitch should be thrown hard and to a spot, whether in practice or in a game.

 

[default]

This topic falls under the "Grasshopper Effect" heading...

 

[default]

no doubt

 

[default]

These kids are not machines. Not every pitch they throw will have the same velocity and spin, there will be a range. If they do every thing right and the timing perfect they can reach a 'peak' speed. That will not happen on every pitch. They will get tired, be distracted and lean a little or not follow through. They practice every day not to do this but it happens.

I use a radar gun that has a display that can flash after every pitch. In practice the speeds are all over the place as the pitcher works through the lessons. If you want to throw every pitch at 57 then get a pitching machine!