runner on third and a walk

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I know this question has been answered a hundred times here, but I need a bit more information.
with a girl on third and the batter walks--of course now she is a base runner. If the catcher throws the ball back to the pitcher does the lady on third have to go back to third or towards home as soon as the ball is in the circle or when the ball is in the circle and after the batter base runner touches first base. Thanks

 

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As soon as the pitcher has the ball in her possesion inside the circle, the runner on 3rd must either go home or back to 3rd. This is assuming the pitcher makes no attempt to pick off a runner or fake a throw.

 

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flames14 is wrong. The lookback rule does not come into play until the batter reaches 1st base. Until then the girl on 3rd can do whatever even if the pitcher has the ball in the circle.

 

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The king of fastpitch beasts has it right.

The next question someone will ask is what should you do (blah blah) hold the girl on, etc.

The great JoeA would tell the defense to figure out a way to get an out from this situation, even if it means giving up a run. (Bases empty, at least one out - better than runners on second and third.)

So, here is my home-cooked version of what JoeA might recommend.

After ball four, the catcher returns to ball to the pitcher as quickly as possible.

The pitcher enters the circle and stands, ball in hand, hands at her side, facing between first and second. Ignore the runner on third for now. When the batter reaches first, things start to get interesting.

The lookback rule is in effect as soon as the runner reaches first. Now base runners have limited options.

FIRST BASE
The runner on first may stay on base.
The runner on first may pass first, pause, and immediately return to first.
The runner on first may pass first, pause, and immediately advance toward second.
The runner on first may continue directly toward second without pausing.

THIRD BASE
The runner may immediately return to third and remain there.
The runner may immediately advance toward home.

As long as the pitcher is in the circle and NOT in a position to play on a runner (I define this as having her arm raised in a throwing position) then the runners are bound by the rule. If there is any hesitation or dancing, the umpire should call the runner out.

The most likely play by the offense is to have the batter continue toward second. The recommended play would be for the pitcher to wait until the runner is committed to second (at least half way) and throw her out at second. With a good infield, there is still a potential play for the runner breaking from third to home, since they should not have been straying too far from third. ( I can argue that they are probably starting from third base, with no lead, because they returned under the lookback rule.)

Best outcome for the defense - two outs.
Good outcome - runner out at second, and the third base runner is still on third.
Worst situation - run scores - bases empty, an out in the bank.


All good strategy - just dependent on execution.

Now, here is a question for the umpire crew.

The batter reaches first and continues onto second immediately.

The pitcher is in the circle watching the play. She is not in a throwing position (yet). She has a few seconds before she has to commit.

The runner on third is off base, watching the play between first and second.

Is the lookback rule not in effect as long as there is a play in progress anywhere on the field, or is the third base runner required to commit (independent of what is going on elsewhere on the field)?

I can imagine the third base runner being called out for not committing, and the runner being safe (or out) at second.



The

 

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I've read this rule a dozen times or so. Its still confusing. I thought I had it down. My mistake if I'm wrong, but I was under the assumption all base runners must committ to the next base or go back to org. base once pitcher has ball in circle. I've coached runners on 3rd to hold the base untill the pitcher makes a move toward the runner going to 2nd on a walk. Still, not much advantage to have runner on 3rd hold her lead untill girl reaches 1st. Then I suppose she must return to 3rd as girl reaches 1st & heads to 2nd. I guess we could teach the girl to return very, very slowly to 3rd, in case pitcher makes a play on girl going to 2nd.

Has anyone been involved in a game where umpire has called a girl out, refering to the look back rule?

We tried to argue this rule during a game at Spano Dome tournament last month. Other teams pitcher was taken out during the top half of the inning & moved to play 1st base. Bottom half of inning this girl gets a hit. While on 1st the coach sends girl towards their bench on 3rd base side. Coach is obviously thinking courtesy runner for the pitcher. Head coach on bench yells out " NO, NO, get back on 1st" "She's no longer pitching". Girl stops about half way between 1st & pitcher's rubber & sprints back to 1st. We questioned the ump about the girl being off the base, Umpire turned to us & said he did not see the girl off the base. He obviously saw it, everyone there saw it. We didn't make a big deal about it. I'm just wondering if anyone has been involved in a game where someone was actually called out.

 

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I have seen girls called out several times, both at first and at third.

The situation you describe sounds like the umpire trying not to let a simple coaching error (mistakenly entering a courtesy runner) have an outcome on the game.

 

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flames14,

I am not an umpire, but when you only have one umpire working the game, like at Spanodome, there are some situations that cannot be called because the umpire cannot be watching everything at one time. For your situation that you described at Spano, I wasn't there so I cannot say what the ump could have or would have done. However, just my opinion here, why punish the player for doing what the coach is telling her to do. Lets put the coach in the time-out dugout ;D.

I think if coaches have a better understanding of umpire mechanics, then they would have a better position when questioning a call, or lack of a call. It never hurts for the player closest to the responsible umpire to quietly give the umpire a "heads-up" to watch the runner at 3rd base. Remember, the umpire doesn't know when you have a play called.

 

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Flames14:

If you've read the rule a dozen times, then you must have read the first sentence, oh, about twelve times, or so.

Note that one of the (several) requirements for the Look Back Rule to be in effect is when "the batter-runner has touched first base..." Up until that point (as Lionsfastpitch correctly noted above), the LBR is not in effect and the runner on third (or any other runners) are not bound by its restrictions. She may be on the bag, off the bag, moving any direction or dancing a jig- all legally.

Lionsfastpitch gives a pretty good account and summary of who can do what when. To be completely technical, there is one more option for the runner at third. The two options given are correct if she was standing stationary off third base when the LBR kicked in. But, if she was in motion when the LBR went into effect, she would still have her one stop, and at that point she would need to immediately advance or retreat to the next base without stopping or reversing a second time.

On average, I would say I have called out one or two runners under the LBR each season. And, yes, it is something I watch for!

 

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wvanalmsick, you've Kathy on speed-dial, get her on here and I am sure she will be glad to line us all out real fast. FF

 

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Yep, there are definately some times when it is better to sit on our hands in the dugout than to question a call. It always seems to come back and bite us.

 

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So Bretman, here is the rub...

The runner reaches first and continues at a stroll toward second.

The pitcher is in the circle, ball in hand, and hands at her side, facing between first and second.

Must the runner on third immediately commit, or because there is a potential play between first and second, are they freed from the LBR - even though the pitcher is not at that time making a play?

And I do agree with wvanalmsick. You should teach your third baseman to chant "She's off the bag, she's off the bag!" whenever the LBR rule might be in effect.

 

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The best approach is determined by the score. If my team is leading by more than 2 runs late in the game....go for the out. I am surprise by the number of coaches that go for the "continuous walk" when they are down by 4 or 5 runs. It is a no-brainer - we will give up a run for the out. We also have a strategy for close games. If you want to know what it is.. you will have to watch one of our games.

 

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Sideliner,

"Must the runner on third immediately commit, or because there is a potential play between first and second, are they freed from the LBR - even though the pitcher is not at that time making a play?"

Take "potential play" out of the equation. Think of it this way- you only have two choices:

1) The pitcher is making a play, or;

2) She is not making a play.

(For the purpose of the rule, a fake throw is considered as "making a play".)

If the pitcher is NOT making a play, all runners are subject to the constraints of the Look Back Rule.

Applying that concept to the specific sequence you described:

"The runner reaches first and continues at a stroll toward second" along with "The pitcher is in the circle, ball in hand, and hands at her side, facing between first and second" taken together mean that the LBR is in effect and the pitcher is NOT making a play. Therefore, all runners must adhere to the LBR.

The runner at third must adhere to the following constraints the instant that the LBR kicks in:

- If she is stopped on the base, she may not leave it.

- If she is standing still off the base, she must immediately head directly to either home or third without stopping a second time or changing directions.

- If she is moving in one direction while off the base, she still has the option of stopping one time, then must commit to either home or third without stopping or reversing direction a second time.

Hope that helps- rather than make it more confusing!

 

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The best approach is determined by the score. ?If my team is leading by more than 2 runs late in the game....go for the out. ?I am surprise by the number of coaches that go for the "continuous walk" when they are down by 4 or 5 runs. ?It is a no-brainer - we will give up a run for the out. ?We also have a strategy for close games. ?If you want to know what it is.. you will have to watch one of our games.

You'll have to forgive me for not knowing. Who should we be watching??

 

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Sent you an IM. Others will have to pay attention during tournaments...

 

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Thanks Bretman - just what I wanted to know.

The thought is to get the third base runner to commit - which will generally be back to third - before making a play on the runner advancing toward second. It can potentially set up a double play.

The trick is to get the umpire to make a call on the third base runner for not committing - but remaining off base and waiting for the play at second to develop. A good umpire should call the runner out under the LBR after a second or two.

 

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Just saw this thread. ?As Johnnies said, if you're up multiple runs and on defense, especially late in the game, just take the out, give the offense the run, and maybe even thank the other coach if you're so inclined. ?On second thought, don't thank him/her, just be silently thankful.

sideliner, yes, that's how I would do the mechanics of the play. ?The entire key on defense is that the players know what we want before the walk ever occurs. ?There are three options:

1. ?We want the out and will give up the run... ?
? ? (a) ?Up two or more runs in the last inning. ?
? ? (b) ?Usually with no outs. ?Depends on our pitcher (big strikeout pitcher and we may not give them the run) and also the other team's pitcher (if we're going to be hard-pressed to get a run or two on the board, we may need to let the batter/runner have second and play for a shutout). ? Generally, the younger the age group, the more likely I'll take the out. ?In most 12-U games, a girl on third with no outs is going to score at least 80% of the time. ?Might as well erase the girl going to second (who is also likely to score if we don't erase her now) and give them the run they're going to get soon enough, anyway. ?Also, they are now playing with one out instead of zero, thereby greatly decreasing the odds of anyone else scoring during the inning. ?
? ? (c) ?With a big lead early in the game or a big or maybe two or more run lead in the middle of the game. ?Of course, the bigger the lead, the more you can afford on defense to trade a base for an out. ?Again, we're much more likely to take the out when there are no outs rather than when there is already one out. ?

2. ?We will give the batter/runner second and keep the other girl on third...
? ? (a) Bottom of last inning, tie game.
? ? (b) With one out and we have a big strikeout pitcher or just generally a dominating pitcher and the runner on third would tie the game or maybe get the other team within one run. ?Of course if it's the last inning and the girl on third is not the tying run, we'll take the out and let her score.
? ? (c) With one out and the other team has maybe the bottom of its order coming up and those hitters appear to be weak hitters. ?
? ? (d) Except for (a), about any time we're going up against a pitcher that we know we're probably going to have to beat 1-0, or maybe 2-1. ?In those situations, you just have to gamble that you can get out of the inning without giving up any runs.
? ? (e) Usually with two outs. ?With my 18s, I'll often tell the pitcher to watch the batter/runner as she's going to second. ?If the B/R just has her head down (like bad baserunners will), then go ahead and throw the ball to the shortstop at second base as the B/R is getting close. ?The shortstop can then put a quick tag on long before the girl on third has time to score. ?The shortstop must know to not let the girl on third score if the B/R sees the throw and gets into a rundown. ? We do NOT want to give up a run on this play with two outs, as we'll just take our chances getting the next batter. ?

3. ?We could go either way...
? ? (a) ?About any situation not described above. ?This is usually with one out. ?It depends on the score, where the other team is in its batting order, our pitcher, and what we're likely to do against the other team's pitcher. ?With a 16-U or 18-U team, I'm more likely to take a chance on getting the B/R, with the option of going after the girl on third if she takes off for home. ?

About the only time we're just going to let the B/R have second for free at 18-U is with two outs, and even then not in all situations. ?

 

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Bretman, Just to make sure what you are saying as to the LBR. In this situation I run the infield defense the same as JoeA and others with the only exception of having my pitcher watch the runner on 3rd and make my 1st baseman the watchdog on the runner going or not going to 2nd. My thought is to pin the runner at 3rd as close to 3rd as possible before we start whatever play we are going to run. If the batter runner goes then my 1st baseman yells runner and we react according to the situation the same as JoeA outlined. But to get to the rule interpretation: if the batter runner makes the turn and continues to 2nd is the runner on 3rd required to either continue to home or return to 3rd immediately or can she maintain her position until the batter runner reaches 2nd? My understanding was a play in progress, the runner continuing to 2nd, meant the LBR was not in effect until the girl was standing on 2nd. If I understand what you are saying as soon as the batter runner hits 1st the LBR is effect so..... if my pitcher watches the runner at 3rd, stands with the ball in her hand without raising it to the throwing position and the batter runner continues to 2nd then the runner at 3rd would be called out if she just stood in the baseline while off the base? Thanks and hope you see what I am getting at.

 

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go4fpsb

You do have the rules correct. According to Bretman, the LBR is a rule that applies independently to each base runner. So, if the batter touches first, and continues on toward second, the runner on third is STILL subject to the lookback rule.

My disagreement is watching the runner on third. The most likely play - and most likely out - will be at second, so I want my pitcher facing there. The third baseman-catcher combo have the responsibility for letting the pitcher know if the runner heads for home.

A goal is to catch that runner violating the LBR, but it is dependent on things out of your control - the actions of the base runner, and the interpretation of the umpire.

You have more control over the runner heading to second - it is throw or don't throw.

 

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I love this play.