Scoring Decision...

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0 or 1 outs, runner on 3rd... batter bunts, fielder (1st base, 3rd or pitcher) fields and holds ball instead of throwing to 1st - not wanting to allow runner to score... scoring decision on batter? FC correct?

 

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Fielders choice is correct. Also, all it takes is a glance to hold the runner and if she does attempt the throw to first base after holding the runner and the batter beats the throw to first, it is still a fielders choice. Not a hit for the batter.

 

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i was always told if the runner beats the throw it is a hit .

 

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Yes, I believe that is a fielder's choice. Here is the ATEC provision:

"Credit a Fielder's Choice:

. . .

4. when a runner is checked and no throw is made (a mere checking of a lead runner, or faking a throw does not constitute a play, unless no throw is made, but when a check is followed by a throw and the hitter is safe, credit a hit)"

I suppose we could argue about whether the lead runner was checked but from what you describe the goal of holding the ball was to stop the lead runner from scoring.

Also, if it were really clear that the runner was going to be safe on the bunt even without a check, I would consider giving a hit. Ted and I were arguing about that this weekend during a game. I believe that the fact of a check is irrelevant if the player was going to make it to first without the check, based on the following separate ATEC provision:

"Credit a hit
. . .
2. when a batter advances safely to any base on a fair ball hit with such force (not enough time to react), or so slowly (more than ordinary effort is necessary to throw batter out), that more than a routine play is required to put out the batter or runner"

Be interested in others' thoughts on whether a hit can be awarded in the circumstance where there is a runner on third, the runner is checked and no throw is made, but the batter would have been safe even if a throw had been made without a check.

 

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@BookEMOhio

Per the ATEC provision that I posted above, I don't believe your answer is correct.

 

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Agreed FC.

 

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touched base.
SECTION 7?FIELDER?S CHOICE
A fielder?s choice is credited in the following situations:
14.7.1 To a batter:
14.7.1.1 When a ground ball is put in play and any preceding
runner is out on the hit or would have been
out had no error occurred.
14.7.1.2 When a ground ball is put in play and the lead
runner is safe, but the batter would have been out
had the initial play gone to first base.
14.7.1.3 When a ground ball is put in play and any preceding
runner, who is forced to advance, is called out
on an appeal for missing the first base to which she
was advancing.
14.7.1.4 When a runner is checked and no throw or a
late throw is made, but the runner would have been
out had the initial play gone to first base.


Official NCAA scoring of a fielders choice. 14.7.1.4

 

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Hit all day........... I"m hard on defenses and I believe that outs should be made or at least a play. Whether it be a fake throw to draw the runner off base or if the fielder makes the throw to first hoping to get the double play. I think sometimes we look to take hits away from batters. A good defense will get the out AND keep the run from scoring. My answer is an opinion though and not supported by a scoring guidline.

 

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Fielder's choice unless the scorekeeper judges the batter would have beaten the throw anyhow.

 

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touched base.

14.7.1.4 When a runner is checked and no throw or a
late throw is made, but the runner would have been
out had the initial play gone to first base.


Official NCAA scoring of a fielders choice. 14.7.1.4

I don't see how this provision says, as your earlier post did, that after a check has been made and a throw is attempted the batter runner always receives a fielder's choice and not a hit. It seems pretty definitively to state that the fielder's choice is only the proper scoring if the runner would have been out had there been no check.

I do find these scoring differences between ATEC and NCAA interesting, however. I think originally the NCAA rules were virtually identical with ATEC and since then the NCAA has made changes, many of which appear very reasonable to me. Especially this NCAA provision, which helps me in my argument with Ted. ;&

 

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Hit all day........... I"m hard on defenses and I believe that outs should be made or at least a play. Whether it be a fake throw to draw the runner off base or if the fielder makes the throw to first hoping to get the double play. I think sometimes we look to take hits away from batters. A good defense will get the out AND keep the run from scoring. My answer is an opinion though and not supported by a scoring guidline.

If you're opinion is not supported by a scoring guideline and you're giving girls hits when the scoring guidelines clearly define it as something other than a hit, then you're doing nothing more that inflating batting averages. it's easy to see why college coaches put very little weight on travel ball and HS stats. The original post is a FC

 

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Yes, I believe that is a fielder's choice. Here is the ATEC provision:

"Credit a Fielder's Choice:

4. when a runner is checked and no throw is made (a mere checking of a lead runner, or faking a throw does not constitute a play, unless no throw is made, but when a check is followed by a throw and the hitter is safe, credit a hit)"

...

Be interested in others' thoughts on whether a hit can be awarded in the circumstance where there is a runner on third, the runner is checked and no throw is made, but the batter would have been safe even if a throw had been made without a check.

Your position is clearly in line with the NCAA guideline (see 14.7.1.4 on BookemOH's post) that treats the checking of a lead runner the same as making a play on them, regardless of whether a late throw is made or not.

This particular ATEC guideline is very poorly written and defines when a check is a play. My interpretation is as follows:
- It starts off saying score it FC "when a runner is checked and no throw is made" and then says a check or fake throw is a play on a runner if no throw is made to 1B. If it is an unsuccessful attempt on a lead runner, the scorer should be able to use their judgement on whether "the batter would have been out had the initial play been made at first" like they can in the previous guideline (#3).
- A check is not a play on a runner if the fielder throws to 1B, so the scorer doesn't judge whether the batter would have been safe had the initial play been made at first (i.e. without the check).

Without info supporting a hit on Doug's play - I'd go along with FC.

 

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I agree a fielder's choice unless the runner would have beaten any throw, then score it a hit.

 

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SoCal dad is correct. This rule is poorly written, however it is a common sense decision for the scorekeeper. The question is....could the defensive player (with a check and ordinary effort) make a play? It sounds like the defensive player could have made a play on the batter, but she chose not to, so I would mark it down as a FC.

Len

 

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It comes up every game, the batter does exactly what she is supposed to do, executes perfectly, sometimes even to the point where she would get a straight up hit - yet we assign an FC hurting her BA. Our scorekeeper and I discussed it after 2 straight bunts like that where the runner held at third and no play was made.

If the runner breaks for home, and throw is 'late' ie, runner is safe - batter gets a hit? or FC?

 

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IMHO it should be a sac. In the book.
That is what you are asking the girl to
do. She done her job, so why punish
her?

 

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That is what my scorekeeper thought would be fair... if the play does not result in an out - the batter placed the ball where all hands are safe - why not reward her or at least not penalize her? If she pops it up - out, if she bunts too hard to 1st and they tag her out.. but if she does her job and places it where there is no play - safe .. sac seems fairest... and yep, sometimes what seems fair is not the rule...

 

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I fully agree w/ Stingrays 98 - should go down in the book as a sac since the hitter was voluntarily giving herself up but only if she is safe at first.

My read is if a play was made at home & runner is safe then batter gets a hit.

 

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9 times outta 10 I score it as an FC... If the defense fields it in plenty of time to make the throw. But if it is a well placed bunt and in my opinion had no shot at making the throw but still held the runner at third I'll score a hit. I'll agree that it would be fair to put as a sac, but if batter is not out can you give a sac?

 

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I fully agree w/ Stingrays 98 - should go down in the book as a sac since the hitter was voluntarily giving herself up but only if she is safe at first.

My read is if a play was made at home & runner is safe then batter gets a hit.

On the first bolded language: why wouldn't the batter runner get a SAC if the defense makes the play to first for an out but the 3B runner scores? And why wouldn't the batter runner get a hit if she placed the bunt so perfectly that the defense couldn't have gotten her at first even if they hadn't checked the runner at 3rd or made a play at home on that runner?

On the second bolded language: so you are saying that whether the batter runner gets a hit depends on whether the 3B runner scores?

ATEC surely doesn't agree:

"Credit a Fielders Choice
. . .
3 when a ball is put in play where a play is made on any lead runner and an out occurs, or an out would have occurred had no error taken place, or the runner is
safe, but the batter would have been out had the initial play been made at first,"

And the NCAA Scoring Rules also don't agree:

"Credit a Fielders Choice
. . .

14.7.1.2 When a ground ball is put in play and the lead
runner is safe, but the batter would have been out
had the initial play gone to first base."