Scoring question - passed ball

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OK, a passed ball is not an error - it has its own stats category. But here is the question.

Do runs that score as a result of a passed ball count as earned runs or unearned runs?

And how far back do you go to determine it?

I can think of several scenarios:

Runner reaches base safely after K/dropped third strike (passed ball).

Runner scores from third as the result of a passed ball. The batter at the plate is then retired for the third out.

Runner on second reaches third as result of a passed ball. Batter then singles to short left field. Third-base runner scores, but clearly would not have scored if advancing from second. The inning then ends without any other batter reaching base or the runner on first advancing.

Scoring gurus - what is the answer?

 

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I think under NCAA rules they are unearned, but I'd need to look to be certain. I'm just glad you spelled passed correctly!

 

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Joe, you and I are just two journalism majors stumbling through the dark night...

 

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According to ATEC:

2. Earned runs are determined by reconstructing the inning as it would have been played without errors and passed balls (including errors on the pitcher).​

 

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ATEC says to score the run as unearned if, in the absence of the passed ball, the runner would not have scored (see "Pitching: Earned Runs" in the ATEC scoring guide:

"8. The run is unearned if a runner who advances by an error, passed ball, or defensive interference/obstruction, would not have scored without the misplay."

 

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Ah Bill, you beat me by seconds. Story of my life. But it is interesting to note that in two places ATEC makes it clear that the run would be unearned.

 

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Ah Bill, you beat me by seconds. Story of my life. But it is interesting to note that in two places ATEC makes it clear that the run would be unearned.

But you and I were all over it, like white on rice!!!

 

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ATEC says to score the run as unearned if, in the absence of the passed ball, the runner would not have scored (see "Pitching: Earned Runs" in the ATEC scoring guide:

"8. The run is unearned if a runner who advances by an error, passed ball, or defensive interference/obstruction, would not have scored without the misplay."

This is exactly right; the difference between a passed ball and a wild pitch is that the passed ball is akin to an error and can lead to an unearned run. A wild pitch, on the other hand, is the pitcher's responsibility and if the runner reached or scored because of it the run is earned. So if you are keeping score you need to know the distinction; routinely whenever one gets by the catcher people refer to it as a passed ball, however, in most cases it really is a wild pitch. Pitches in the dirt generally should be scored as wild pitches. The bar for a passed ball is one the catcher should get (generally off the glove or dropped). Most of the time when a batter reaches on a strikeout it is really a wild pitch because the pitch was in the dirt.

 

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This is exactly right; the difference between a passed ball and a wild pitch is that the passed ball is akin to an error and can lead to an unearned run. A wild pitch, on the other hand, is the pitcher's responsibility and if the runner reached or scored because of it the run is earned. So if you are keeping score you need to know the distinction; routinely whenever one gets by the catcher people refer to it as a passed ball, however, in most cases it really is a wild pitch. Pitches in the dirt generally should be scored as wild pitches. The bar for a passed ball is one the catcher should get (generally off the glove or dropped). Most of the time when a batter reaches on a strikeout it is really a wild pitch because the pitch was in the dirt.

100% correct!!!!!

 

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What, there are more of us journalism people in softball? Who knew?

 

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Well......you need to ask a very important question to determine that. Who is the score keeper?? Mom or Dad of the pitcher or catcher???

 

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So if you are keeping score you need to know the distinction; routinely whenever one gets by the catcher people refer to it as a passed ball, however, in most cases it really is a wild pitch. Pitches in the dirt generally should be scored as wild pitches. The bar for a passed ball is one the catcher should get (generally off the glove or dropped). Most of the time when a batter reaches on a strikeout it is really a wild pitch because the pitch was in the dirt.

Wait just a minute! Obviously, the moderators have mistakenly let the parents of catchers join the forum! :lmao:

There are a few pitches that, when thrown effectively, are designed to hit the ground. Some drop balls and change-ups could not go directly into a catcher's glove and be very effective pitches - in fact, they would be expected to perform that way. An average catcher should be able to keep those pitches in front of them and prevent a runner from advancing. I (almost) always score a ball that scoots under a catcher as a passed ball, not a wild pitch.

But on the wild pitch part - here is a different spin. What if the wild pitch that allows a run to score is thrown by a different pitcher - not the pitcher who put the runner on base? Is the run still earned? The pitcher who allowed the base runner did nothing in this case.

 

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Wait just a minute! Obviously, the moderators have mistakenly let the parents of catchers join the forum! :lmao:

There are a few pitches that, when thrown effectively, are designed to hit the ground. Some drop balls and change-ups could not go directly into a catcher's glove and be very effective pitches - in fact, they would be expected to perform that way. An average catcher should be able to keep those pitches in front of them and prevent a runner from advancing. I (almost) always score a ball that scoots under a catcher as a passed ball, not a wild pitch.

ATEC defines balls bouncing in as wild pitches. A good catcher can save a pitcher from lots of wild pitches, but they are still by definition wild pitches if they get by and weren't catchable with ordinary effort or bounced in.

So how long has your DD been pitching?;&

 

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She took her first lesson the day Maurice Clarett scored his last college touchdown.

I am guessing I couldn't have scored more than 16,497 passed balls since that day, so I don't think there has been any effect on her stats...

 

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I have another scoring question. I know that if you have a runner at first and less than two outs and the batter bunts and is safe because of an error, the batter is still given a sacrifice/no time at bat. How about on a routine fly ball that would have been deep enough to score a runner from third on a sac fly, but the fielder drops it? Is that still a sac/no time at bat? I believe it is, but I don't think many scorers know it.

 

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ATEC defines balls bouncing in as wild pitches. A good catcher can save a pitcher from lots of wild pitches, but they are still by definition wild pitches if they get by and weren't catchable with ordinary effort or bounced in.

So how long has your DD been pitching?;&

Actually I am on both sides of the fence - one of mine is a pitcher and the other one is a catcher

ATEC and the baseball rules of scoring define balls in the dirt as wild pitches. Most catchers stop the change-ups and drop balls that are in the dirt because they expect them to go down and they usually are bouncing right in front of them. At higher levels this generally does not result in a wild pitch because the pitch is caught or stopped. If the pitcher is wild, however, the catcher cannot afford to cheat down and then these go past. If the pitcher is throwin fastballs in the dirt it is almost impossible to stop. From that standpoint the rules make sense as they take a lot of the judgement out of it and eliminate the inconsistency of books. Whenever a sinker or change-up goes by the catcher that hit in front of the catcher go by I think it should be stopped but if I am scoring it is a wild pitch

As far as your second question, if the relief pitcher throws a wild pitch my take would be the run is still earned- from a scoring standpoint it is the same as if the relief pitcher gave up a hit.

 

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Wait just a minute! Obviously, the moderators have mistakenly let the parents of catchers join the forum! :lmao:

Just remember, your pitcher is only as good as your catcher.(From a catcher's Dad's perspective)

There are a few pitches that, when thrown effectively, are designed to hit the ground. Some drop balls and change-ups could not go directly into a catcher's glove and be very effective pitches - in fact, they would be expected to perform that way. An average catcher should be able to keep those pitches in front of them and prevent a runner from advancing. I (almost) always score a ball that scoots under a catcher as a passed ball, not a wild pitch.

So the pitcher throws a drop ball that hits the dirt. The catcher collapses and successfully blocks the pitch from getting by her but the pitch bounces off of her just far enough for the runner to advance (remember we teach our runners to be aggressive with those "dirty" balls, especially our speedy runners). So who are we going to penalize now, the pitcher or the catcher?

 

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Just remember, your pitcher is only as good as your catcher.(From a catcher's Dad's perspective)

Agreed

So the pitcher throws a drop ball that hits the dirt. The catcher collapses and successfully blocks the pitch from getting by her but the pitch bounces off of her just far enough for the runner to advance (remember we teach our runners to be aggressive with those "dirty" balls, especially our speedy runners). So who are we going to penalize now, the pitcher or the catcher?

Wild Pitch Pitcher, by definition someone already answered that it is a ball that should be caught with ordinary effort, FWIW my DD pitches and catches

 

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Originally Posted by wvanalmsick
Just remember, your pitcher is only as good as your catcher.(From a catcher's Dad's perspective)

A good catcher can make an average or worse pitcher look good a bad catcher will make a good pitcher look bad.......