The simple reason Cali teams are better then Ohio

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As much as I love to see an Intelligent debate this one wont go anywhere fast.... Puncy your arguing with parents that may have never seen ball played outside of Ohio, its all they know and youll never change the thought process untill they leave the state and play in Ok the South or Cali.......It is what it is........ just smile and be glad your thru with travel

Tim

 

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One addition here as far as a numbers thing. I lived and played men's fastpitch in California for almost twenty years and one aspect of the numbers game is that there are a tremendous number of men playing fastpitch in California. It is not uncommon to see men's games as opposed to here where it is almost impossible to find a mens game in most parts of the state.

My point is when I played we had many of our daughters with us hanging out at the park and learning the game by example. There are many more accomplished players and teachers of the game becuase the game still exsists in rec leagues all the way to open teams.

 

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Man, this topic is all over the place from valid arguments for the original question posed, to lessons on pitching and hitting, to some people saying there is no difference ... its all in our heads. Wow.

Anyone who doesn't think there is a difference is either blind or ignorant ... maybe because they just haven't had to the chance to see it for themselves. That's not to say that Ohio doesn't have some girls who are every bit as good as the best players in California, or that good Ohio teams can never beat good Cali teams. But JoeA and punchout are absolutely right about the reasons for the differences.

While sheer population certainly is a contributor, the fact is that a higher percentage of the top athletes are playing softball in California, no doubt partially due to the weather and the popularity of the sport out there. If we were to take some of the best "indoor" (i.e., basketball, volleyball) athletes here, and turned them into softball players and put them on teams with our current best softball players and they could more easily train and play year-round, then I am sure it would be an altogether different story.

 

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Coachjwb, a voice of reason. But when does that ever figure into a thread on OFC?

 

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Coachjwb, a voice of reason. But when does that ever figure into a thread on OFC?

 

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As much as I love to see an Intelligent debate this one wont go anywhere fast.... Puncy your arguing with parents that may have never seen ball played outside of Ohio, its all they know and youll never change the thought process untill they leave the state and play in Ok the South or Cali.......It is what it is........ just smile and be glad your thru with travel

Tim

Tim I actually really miss my kid playing travel ball. I miss the other players and their parents. I miss the hotels, eating at fastfood places and the rain delays. I miss it all and wouldnt trade those days for anything. After playing travel ball myself for twenty years, my retirement from softball was made easy by my daughters travel ball. I had no withdrawl at all. Now that it`s all over, I miss it more than I can say. I still miss sitting on the bucket catching junk.

At one time,I was where some of these parents are right now. I didnt know where the good travel teams were, or who they were. I had been thru the football recruiting myself, but was clueless as to how softball recruiting worked. I was, until some of the fathers who had the experience, were good enough to set people straight on the forums. Fathers like Mr`s Chain, Enix, Leary etc had their confrontations on the forums, but for those of us who listened, learned.

People need to listen to people like Joe A or Lilly(and others), they have been there and done that. Experience is a good teacher. The dads and moms who have kids who played in the big tournaments, scheduled countless training sessions, and saw their kids get the scholarships, have a wealth of knowledge, all the people here have to do is listen.

 

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Tim I actually really miss my kid playing travel ball. I miss the other players and their parents. I miss the hotels, eating at fastfood places and the rain delays. I miss it all and wouldnt trade those days for anything. After playing travel ball myself for twenty years, my retirement from softball was made easy by my daughters travel ball. I had no withdrawl at all. Now that it`s all over, I miss it more than I can say. I still miss sitting on the bucket catching junk.

At one time,I was where some of these parents are right now. I didnt know where the good travel teams were, or who they were. I had been thru the football recruiting myself, but was clueless as to how softball recruiting worked. I was, until some of the fathers who had the experience, were good enough to set people straight on the forums. Fathers like Mr`s Chain, Enix, Leary etc had their confrontations on the forums, but for those of us who listened, learned.

People need to listen to people like Joe A or Lilly(and others), they have been there and done that. Experience is a good teacher. The dads and moms who have kids who played in the big tournaments, scheduled countless training sessions, and saw their kids get the scholarships, have a wealth of knowledge, all the people here have to do is listen.

As much as I appreciate what you said and agree with it, you know the old saying.......... you can lead a horse to water........

 

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As much as I appreciate what you said and agree with it, you know the old saying.......... you can lead a horse to water........
__________________
I agree 100 %

 

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The OFC is priceless for what it offers to softball parents -- wisdom. And, of course, a healthy dose of wise *** comments. I live for those.

 

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The OFC is priceless for what it offers to softball parents -- wisdom. And, of course, a healthy dose of wise *** comments. I live for those.

Philbob, here's one for you. Who gives a sh** about Cali teams, we live in Ohio. Let's have a snowball fight.

 

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BH97 -- LMAO. Let those Cali teams play in Elyria's New Year's Day Mud Bowl (Two men's slow pitch teams have played a softball game for about at the same field every Jan. 1 for 70-some years. (Although the last few years there have been as many old fastpitch women playing as guys).

 

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Bill Hillhouse talked about it at the Hawks Clinic and ruffled some feathers by saying if you are going to a pitching coach who teaches you to finish upward verses finishing across your body you are an accident waiting to happen and it is not the proper bio mechanics . Howard, Is there any studies that have been done that we could read to back this statement?

I spent some time looking at the great pitchers of our time, with the internet it's not hard to find videos that show the style of how they pitch. I am yet to find one of them that throw their pitching arm across their body, Cat Osterman, Lisa Fernandez, Monica Abbott, Jenny Finch, none bring their arm across their body. The only one that I could find that did and it was only on certain pitches was Alicia Hollowell but only on certain pitches. I have always thought that you look at the best and that should tell you what style you should emulate. If I wanted my dd to be a great hitter I would start with Crystal Bustos, if I wanted her to be a great pitcher, Cat, Monica, Jenny, Lisa, just my opinion.

 

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I spent some time looking at the great pitchers of our time, with the internet it's not hard to find videos that show the style of how they pitch. I am yet to find one of them that throw their pitching arm across their body, Cat Osterman, Lisa Fernandez, Monica Abbott, Jenny Finch, none bring their arm across their body. The only one that I could find that did and it was only on certain pitches was Alicia Hollowell but only on certain pitches. I have always thought that you look at the best and that should tell you what style you should emulate. If I wanted my dd to be a great hitter I would start with Crystal Bustos, if I wanted her to be a great pitcher, Cat, Monica, Jenny, Lisa, just my opinion.

I agree with you 100%. I cannot say that Hillhouse is a bad pitcher, because he is obviously not. I have never seen ANY of the top NPF or college pitchers use his mechanics of finishing across the body unless they are throwing a rise screw and that can be debated also. Let's just say he's right about the mechanics and every single female pitcher and pitching coach in the free world is wrong. Where would you go to get lessons? Hillhouse is going to be in Hawaii, California, Indiana, etc... should we get on a bus and follow him around like groupies for the Greatful Dead?
sorry 4 the hijack

 

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I spent some time looking at the great pitchers of our time, with the internet it's not hard to find videos that show the style of how they pitch. I am yet to find one of them that throw their pitching arm across their body, Cat Osterman, Lisa Fernandez, Monica Abbott, Jenny Finch, none bring their arm across their body. The only one that I could find that did and it was only on certain pitches was Alicia Hollowell but only on certain pitches. I have always thought that you look at the best and that should tell you what style you should emulate. If I wanted my dd to be a great hitter I would start with Crystal Bustos, if I wanted her to be a great pitcher, Cat, Monica, Jenny, Lisa, just my opinion.

With all due respect to Bill H. we have debated on the follow thru and throwing the curve on JJ huddle a couple years ago. Bill doesnt believe in the curve(because it stays on the same plane). My point is similar to yours. The GREATEST womens pitchers in history all thru curves and many lived on the curve (exception is Finch) Osterman, Fernandez, Mowett,and many others all threw a lot of curves that stay on plane. If she can get it to go up or down (like a slider) even better. Actually no curve completely stays on plane. DD had well over one thousand strikeouts in high school alone throwing @ 70 % curves. Osterman who has more velocity than my kid throws at least 50% curves and she throws them to righties as well as lefties. Good enough for me.
Movement is great no matter the movement, however, movement without sufficient speed is not very effective against accomplished college hitters.

 

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We just did a clinic with Hillhouse and this subject came up and Deb Hartwig put Jennie up and she finished across her body and then went up. More style than mechanics as she finished across after the arm slowed down naturally. Each click of the mouse was 1/60 of a second. Just as in throwing over hand the arm should finish towards the glove side thigh across the body. About 80% of the arm injuries are due to deceleration phase after the release not during acceleration phase prior to the release.

I would ask you to observe your daughters, kids you are coaching and look for the following when throwing overhand: does their back leg release from the ground after the ball is released when throwing over hand? Did their throwing arm go straight down? Did the arm finish across their body? Did their hips drive forward or go off to their glove side at an angle? Did their glove side arm just lay on the chest resting passively? Or was it active with the elbow and glove being moved rearward? Then ask your kids if their elbow and shoulder hurt after a double header?

Then I would like someone to tell me why at 12 years old you have not shown your daughters/ kids you are coaching how to throw without their arms and elbows hurting? Why most of them can not throw over 45 to 50 MPH? Please be specific enough in your answer as to why the female has these issues verses the male and possibly offer a way to teach the female how to throw correctly like an athlete not like a boy?

I get PM's and email's every day asking about some of these questions as they do not want too look stupid by asking what they can do to help improve their daughters performance on a discussion board. I had a group here over the summer and the team will remain nameless...the mother bragged about how good a catcher her daughter was and she throws everyone out that tries to steal on her. I threw her three soft toss pitches, a standard test I do with every kid, inside, middle and away and she pulled all three pitches and I stated you probably do not throw well either. Mom defended her and said she is wonderful! I said lets see you throw. After three throws I said I wish I had a radar gun as I doubt if you throw 45 MPH. The coach that brought them had a gun so we threw 10 more balls to get some data points...44 MPH was max!

I told her mother I would bet her we could increase her speed by 5 to 8 MPH in less than 15 minutes and she laughed, it took about 8 minutes and she was throwing at 52 MPH. This girl was 16 years old! How did she get this far without someone teaching her how to at least throw? +

We go over this at our clinics as it is a foundation that seems to be elusive in the general softball community around here for some reason. The weight shift involved is also taught during the hitting. In 20 years I have never been wrong when I see poor to no weight shift in hitting mechanics they also throw with no weight shift mechanics. In the past three months I have worked with about 80 to 100 coaches and they witnessed why they do not understand how the female body works differently than the males. When I do a mini clinic they bring two girls I have never worked with before and we do a before and after demonstration so they can see the difference. It was interesting talking to Howard K about what he teaches. I said how can you teach a kid advanced fielding techniques when they do not understand basic balance or throwing? A few weeks later he emailed me and tried what we discussed and saw the improvements.

Thanks for your time and I look forward to your answers or suggestions.

Please be specific enough in your answer as to why the female has these issues verses the male and possibly offer a way to teach the female how to throw correctly like an athlete not like a boy?

Howard

 

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Howard, i agree with you that deceleration is overlooked as a component of training; how would one train for strength/agility of the deceleration phase of pitching/throwing ?
FR

 

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Howard, i agree with you that deceleration is overlooked as a component of training; how would one train for strength/agility of the deceleration phase of pitching/throwing ?
FR

I am not a certified trainer and I use Jensen Brent at Children's Hospital Cincinnati when I have a question as to training techniques. However finishing to the glove side thigh is a natural shock absorber when it comes to slowing down the arm verses most girls who finish downward or snap the elbow or finishing across the body.

I really would like to hear why many of the coaches have over looked throwing mechanics in this part of the country? Why is something like throwing considered to be so simple to do and yet it is not even close to being correct in my opinion as to what they have been taught.

I have worked with Berg, Jung, Topping, Lowe and Bustos on throwing and learned a lot! What we see in clinics is an accident waiting to happen and you ask yourself how did they make it this far? Coach Larabee shook his head and said how have we overlooked this for this long? Most males coaches do not understand how the female body works verses male and what to teach or how to teach them to see it, feel it and fix it in my opinion.

Please be specific enough in your answer as to why the female has these issues verses the male and possibly offer a way to teach the female how to throw correctly like an athlete not like a boy?

This could be a great discussion and be helpful for your daughters...

I will add this... www.jospt.org/members/getfile.asp?id=778

The greatest resistance to distraction
(compressive, superior
forces) occurs during the delivery or
acceleration phase for underhand
pitching, while the greatest resistance
during overhand pitching is produced
in the deceleration phase.

The purpose of the comparison
is for qualitative analysis of the
loads experienced during underhand
pitching. Since baseball pitching
studies used male subjects and the
current study used female subjects,
musculoskeletal and social differences
between genders must be recognized.
Typically, a female's upper
torso and arms possess less muscle
mass and strength than the male. At
the elbow, the carrying angle is larg
er, and there is often more ligamentous
[FONT=&quot]laxity in the female. [/FONT]Thanks Howard

 

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I spent some time looking at the great pitchers of our time, with the internet it's not hard to find videos that show the style of how they pitch. I am yet to find one of them that throw their pitching arm across their body, Cat Osterman, Lisa Fernandez, Monica Abbott, Jenny Finch, none bring their arm across their body. The only one that I could find that did and it was only on certain pitches was Alicia Hollowell but only on certain pitches. I have always thought that you look at the best and that should tell you what style you should emulate. If I wanted my dd to be a great hitter I would start with Crystal Bustos, if I wanted her to be a great pitcher, Cat, Monica, Jenny, Lisa, just my opinion.

I am not a pitching person I just observe and listen...my girls who go to Doug Gillis and Bill Hillhouse have less pain in the shoulder, more ball movement, pick up speed on the ball and have less lower back pain. Why?

I will also say they are some of my best hitters a they understand weight shift. Doug Gillis and I were discussing this a few years ago and used Jenny Finch as an example. If you could take her arm out of the picture you could not tell if she was pitching or hitting. Jennie knew balance for pitching however discovered last Oct. it is a little different for hitting at toe touch and had the best season ever as to hitting in a long time this year and had more home runs.

If you look at Finch she does come across her body and then up and I see pitchers from around here finish up period! Nothing close to coming across, not even close. I just went through every pitcher in the RVP system and see with the exception of Danielle Henderson who does comes up, that all the others appears to be some what across the body and not straight up and that is important in the discussion as to what is meant by up verses across in my opinion.

I have Kirk Walkers and Lisa's pitching video on RVP, "Elbow release is final step in the sequencing phase. This allows for release of energy in the upper body. Important injury prevention component. It continues forward down the power line." and Kirk says. "The automatic and natural response of the body seeking balance may vary depending on the pitch being thrown. Some may come up further with the arm and some lower."

I looked at 10 pitchers on RVP, all throwing flip drop and or curve and it appears the arm does not come straight up which was what Bill Hillhouse allueded to at the clinic.

I saw the value added in hearing him say it is the same thing for over hand throwing as to slowing the arm down naturally and each thower/ pitcher will have some variation to technique being taught and their body type.

Hopes this helps to clarify.

Howard

 

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Then I would like someone to tell me why at 12 years old you have not shown your daughters/ kids you are coaching how to throw without their arms and elbows hurting? Why most of them can not throw over 45 to 50 MPH? Please be specific enough in your answer as to why the female has these issues verses the male and possibly offer a way to teach the female how to throw correctly like an athlete not like a boy?

This has a lot to do with female growth patterns. At 10U most girls look very much like most boys. Their hips are narrow, they walk upright and their muscle mass is similar to boys. At 12U the estrogen kicks in and their pelvis's start to spread and tilt changing their basic physical structure/posture. This is tilt is complicated but chest development and further complicated by limited upper body muscle development. This process continues through 12U, 14U and 16U and is generally complete by the 18U age group.

Little girls start at a similar point as little boys but end with a significantly different body at a structural/muscular level. Boys have a much straighter growth path with height, weight and strength being added to the existing frame.

So while the girls are learning how to operate this new body at 14U; the boys are just adding to already learned skills with a body that is not structurally significantly different than the one they started with. In the midst of all these changes we are trying to teach them to throw, catch, run, slide, hit and take on a 3-0 count. It is a little overwhelming, and what worked when they were athletic 10 year olds will not work when they are 17.

 

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I have been around long enough to see many trends and many different pitching coaches. I have been lucky to watch, Finch, Abbott and Osterman to pitch in person. I use to watch pitching coaches, yell " Make a Muscle" with the delivery arm. Many of the pitchers they worked with had arm problems. Gillis and Hillhouse have taken pitching to a new level. Why do people who work and follow what they teach , not have the arm issues that others have? We use to teach hands to the ball and squish the bug, but we progressed. Bill's comment on a curve was as long as it changes planes. What I see at the top levels is not a true curve like in baseball. Drop Curves and even Rise curves are tough pitches to hit. In terms of girls being different than boys. Just watch a 14 year old girl try to drive a nail and then take a 14 year old boy. You will understand the difference when you teach hitting quickly! Since we are talking about Calf.
Here is Bill's webpage.

http://www.houseofpitching.com/ Look at his and Kobata's web page and look at where they spend most of their time !