Time Limit Manipulation.

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I am sure its common Practice and it just seems Unsportsmanlike to me. I have as a Player in Slo-Pitch Tourneys seen it on occasion ( We Call it Gut-less) But here in Travel ball , I have seen it way too much.
Last weekend After a 3 run Bomb to take a 5-4 Lead we had a Team SLOW the game down ridiculously, The Pitcher walking around in circles between Pitches and jabbering away at her teammates , an unnecessary visit to the Mound, Batters stepping outta the Box ... Even a Batter who Ran ALL the way to First and then Moseyed on back to the Plate on a Foul Ball hit OVER the backstop. I fully understand the Time Limits , hate them but understand the need. But Why Unpires allow Coaches to delay games , and Obviously instruct their players to do likewise is a Sad excuse for Competition.
If you do it or have done it Shame on You. I am in the Process of becoming an Umpire next year and You dont want Me doing you games. Teach your girls to Hustle and Complete as much of the game as is Possible. Its good sportsmanship...part of our Job as Coaches.

 

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Totally agree! If you have been around as long as I have - oh... the stories I could tell.

 

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Saw a team this year whose lead was slipping and the coach had all the girls re-tie their shoes in the middle of the inning!

Not to mention the dawdling in and out of the box between pitches, visits to the mound and on and on......

 

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This year we have had to have a girl strike out in two different tournaments to get into a new inning. The pitcher in one of them got yelled at for not taking time between pitches. Our girl was told to swing no matter where it was. We did get in our innings. I feel there is a difference in time managment and open stalling. You can slow your pitcher down, but you cant slow the team down, it may carry over into the next inning. Then what do you do, catcher doesnt hustle, or girls dont get the ball in as quick. Now all the work you have done is gone to waste.

 

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I saw a game in which the team that was in the field actually walked two batters semi-intentionally with the bases loaded even though it had a 1-run lead at the time. The team on defense knew that if the timer went off, the game would revert to the last complete inning and it would win. But it backfired! The team on offense, after taking the lead, intentionally had baserunners leave their bases early so the inning ended with five minutes remaining. The defense hustled onto the field, declined warm-up pitches, and despite the best stalling tactics of the offense, quickly got three outs to win the game. It was absurd, and a perfect example of why the "drop dead" rule should be dropped.

 

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Saw a team this year whose lead was slipping and the coach had all the girls re-tie their shoes in the middle of the inning!

Not to mention the dawdling in and out of the box between pitches, visits to the mound and on and on......

Remember softball and baseball is a game played by kids however it is orchestrated and run by adults and adults do not like to loose to other kids or other adults!

Some of the games looks like they should be referees verses umpires as to the BS they must take from the stands, coaches and players combined!

You complain about the umpires actions, lack of knowledge, lack of hustle etc when all you have to do is look in the mirror and ask yourself what did the coaches, players or fans or parents do to help the situation escalate to get further out of control. Did your actions change anything? In my opinion it looks like the WWF (now it is called something else and Statman follows it closely) and you wonder how much it is showman ship verses reality?

A call at home plate by the umpire had a coach come out screaming and then kicking a bat like Sweet Lou and then two fans jawing with each other like they were going to go at it and the fans still giving it to the umpire. It did not change the call either. Afew of us watching the game started laughing as it was funnt to watch!

Then you see a player get mad and throw a helmet, glove or bat and the coach gives them a life lesson 101 speech which includes holding the player with hands on both shoulders as if to say, do not do what I just did do what I say and learn fom my mistakes and they are the one who kicked the bat and yelled at the umpire and the players dad is most likely the one yelling you got a problem with that bud? Good role models indeed!

I think they should have a tournament for fun or charity where you get selected from the stands to umpire your daughters game and it would be fun to see how you handle it.

You wonder why there are not enough credible umpires, then look at what they get paid to put up with your abusive language, following them to their cars and still ranting and ask yourself do you want to actually be one? I am sure Bretman could find someone to hold a special class for umpires and with as many parents that are out of work you could supplement your income to help pay for your gas coming to the games plus you get the best seat in the house and you can call your own game and make up your own rules and toss anybody you want and all in the same day....wow what other kind of job could give you those perks?

Since Ohio has a conceled and carry permit I have wondered why no one has been shot yet for tying their shoes or wasting time to try and win by delaying the clock and of course the coaches had nothing to do with it as they are grown adults and know better because they are coaching your daughter and of course you never disagree with them either and give them the same respect as the umpire....OK you can laugh out loud now!:lmao:

 

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True words of wisdom Hitter. I used to be one of the over zealous coaches. Yelling about calls I thought were made against my team only, questioning every pitch, getting the last word when the umpire would say "not another word". Experience has changed me. I have umpired and coached for years. I know as an umpire I miss calls, every umpire knows they miss calls. I know as a coach they miss calls. I also know as a coach that the umpire has the best vantage point to make the call. Umpires are put in rediculous situations. Ideally we would have an umpire at every base. Obviously, thats not going to happen but even if we did, we would find reasons to fuss and complain, i.e. Major League Baseball.

As far as delaying to reach a time limit, I have seen coaches who rush their players on the field to uphold the "integrity of the game". I have also witnessed the so called delays. The way the game is played today with time limits isn't the obective still to try and win the game. Shouldn't a coach do his best to allow his team a victory. Are the stallers really using that much more time, or does it just seem longer because we are losing.

My teams have not won as much as I would like over the past few years. We play hard and we always show up. We have lost alot of close games. I have witnessed my own parents complain of stalling. I just don't see it. The object is to win the game within the rules of play. When there is an "excessive" delay every umpire will ask teams to speed up. When a coach wants to change a pitcher, he has that right. When a coach wants to visit the mound, he has that right, it doesn't matter when it is!

Relax, enjoy the talent that is put on the field. Watch these young ladies grow as players and young adults. Enjoy life!

 

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Hitter:

With all due respect, I have to add something about umpires. They are being paid. They are supposed to be professionals (by virtue of accepting money and going through certification training). They are supposed to know the rules and how to position themselves to make the proper calls.

When I see umpires who decide the outcome of games by making incorrect rulings or by blowing calls because they don't move their feet to get the proper angle, I think it is entirely proper for someone in the crowd-- or the coach-- to object. Afterall, there doesn't seem to be any sort of evaluating by a supervisory board to eliminate these incompetent officials. The same bad ones keep showing up week after week.

When you consider all of the time and MONEY these teams spend to get ready for the season and to travel to play these games, it isn't out of the realm of reason for them to expect professionalism from the people who are officiating.

Telling kids, coaches and parents that it should ALL be about sportsmanship and participation is exactly correct --- IN THE REC LEAGUE. This is NOT the rec league. These people are highly competitive and they take their sport seriously. They have a right to expect the umpires to take their JOBS just as seriously.

 

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I saw a game in which the team that was in the field actually walked two batters semi-intentionally with the bases loaded even though it had a 1-run lead at the time. The team on defense knew that if the timer went off, the game would revert to the last complete inning and it would win. But it backfired! The team on offense, after taking the lead, intentionally had baserunners leave their bases early so the inning ended with five minutes remaining. The defense hustled onto the field, declined warm-up pitches, and despite the best stalling tactics of the offense, quickly got three outs to win the game. It was absurd, and a perfect example of why the "drop dead" rule should be dropped.

We actually did this in a tournament. Exactly the same senario, pitcher walking batters intentionally. So we did the same thing. Had the girls leave early. We won. But to me we actually earned it. Reverting back just takes away hard fought runs to win.
IMHO ;&

 

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One wise coach told us once...If we can't win it in regulation we don't deserve to win

 

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what we need is a change of philosophy...umps are going to be what they are, and a game is rarely decided by a call..seriously, of all the calls during a game, all the plays, the hits and errors, and it comes down to one call? what about the girl who struck out with bases loaded (been there) or the overthrow by the third baseman that sent a girl to third (seen that) or the bobble in the outfield that gave a runner an extra base (see?).....yes, some calls are magnified because of the pressure surrounding the call, the inning, score, etc, but are games really decided by one call? doesnt each girl get around 2.5 at bats per game? doesn't each infielder make an average of 3 to 4 plays a game? it's funny as the season gets into full swing and the boards have been inundated with umpire miscues...i'm not saying they dont happen (or that i havent posted a few of my own--see dead ball or continuation thread)..but in my earlier post, in the end it never "costs" us a game.
i think all of us can point to more fervent topics like what really caused the loss...indecision? preperation during the week? attitude? fatigue?
umpires, i wouldnt want ur job, bad calls or good calls

 

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what we need is a change of philosophy...umps are going to be what they are, and a game is rarely decided by a call..seriously, of all the calls during a game, all the plays, the hits and errors, and it comes down to one call? what about the girl who struck out with bases loaded (been there) or the overthrow by the third baseman that sent a girl to third (seen that) or the bobble in the outfield that gave a runner an extra base (see?).....yes, some calls are magnified because of the pressure surrounding the call, the inning, score, etc, but are games really decided by one call? doesnt each girl get around 2.5 at bats per game? doesn't each infielder make an average of 3 to 4 plays a game? it's funny as the season gets into full swing and the boards have been inundated with umpire miscues...i'm not saying they dont happen (or that i havent posted a few of my own--see dead ball or continuation thread)..but in my earlier post, in the end it never "costs" us a game.
i think all of us can point to more fervent topics like what really caused the loss...indecision? preperation during the week? attitude? fatigue?
umpires, i wouldnt want ur job, bad calls or good calls

Brown Nose!!:lmao:

 

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Hitter:

"With all due respect, I have to add something about umpires. They are being paid. They are supposed to be professionals (by virtue of accepting money and going through certification training). They are supposed to know the rules and how to position themselves to make the proper calls.

When I see umpires who decide the outcome of games by making incorrect rulings or by blowing calls because they don't move their feet to get the proper angle, I think it is entirely proper for someone in the crowd-- or the coach-- to object. Afterall, there doesn't seem to be any sort of evaluating by a supervisory board to eliminate these incompetent officials. The same bad ones keep showing up week after week."

We do not disagree and I feel also they should be kept to some type of standard. It is difficult even with instant replay in professional or college games that may show a call missed deciding the outcome of a game.

However the antics of some of the coaches, players and parents are self inflicting as the umpires are human also and do some take it out on those who give them grief? Probably so.

I gave a presentation at the Indiana Girls High School Association a couple years ago and a lady in charge of rules/umpires encouraged the coaches that if they saw an umpire not call crow hopping or not enforcing a rule to video it and send it to her with the time, date, teams involved and umpires name and they would look at it. That was a first time for me to hear about using video tape at the high school level to monitor lack of rules enforcement of particular situations.

Are there good, better, best and poor umpires? Yes there are as there are coaches and parents and players.

I think some people have touched on just not going to the parks or tournaments that use the same umpires who seem to get it wrong or have an agenda and your attendance or lack of it sends a message to the pocket book of the people running these events. Yet some just keep coming back so what is the message we are sending?

I also think the problem teams and or coaches should also be turned away from some of these events as you know what is going to happen based on their track records also.

Then comes the parents who argue every call, be little others daughters and yes maybe sipping some of Tennessee's finest and suddenly become 10 feet tall as a result of it.

The coaches set an example by their actions and are instructing the players as to how to win within the confines of the rules and by human nature we all look for the loop holes in everything we do and the court of common sense is thrown out along with the bath water and the baby and by who? We the adults who are setting examples for our kids by our own actions of which WE all drift from as pillars of our community do from time to time....there is a Blues song...Don't Trust No Man Unless He Has Nail Marks In His Hands!

Unless of course the woman is offering you an apple!

Possibly for the money we get what we ask for at times....someone who is willing to take your money and not work very hard to earn it and can toss you from a game and what is the tournament director doing about it? They may have been lucky just to find someone willing to umpire that weekend.

Price is soon forgotten when service is required after the sale!

We truly do not disagree however as adults, coaches, players and parents we could do a better job also in my opinion. I think it has affected the norms on our society.

 

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I'm no fan of time limit games. As others have said, I understand the need for time limits, but that doesn't mean I have to like them!

The problem is that when you bastardize the rules by adding a clock to a game designed to be played without one, it creates all sorts of conflicts with how the game is normally played. You get delays and stalling and batters striking out on purpose and runners leaving bases early. And, you get one team or the other on the short end of the stick who isn't going to be happy about it!

Every single sport that uses a clock has pages and pages of rules governing clock management and teams have devised entire strategies to deal with it. A quarterback can take a knee, intentionally down the ball or run out of bounds. In basketball you can spread the offense, work the shot clock or intentionally foul an opponent. Most games designed to be played under a clock offer the teams time outs, of which the duration and frequency are rigidly controlled.

Baseball and softball have none of that. This forces teams- and umpires- to deal with situations that are not governed by any set rules.

Some of the stalling techniques a team might use are perfectly legal and must be allowed. All the umpire can do is make sure the otherwise legal ways to delay the game are not abused. For instance:

- With the time limit approaching, a coach decides to talk to his pitcher.

The rules afford each team a set number of charged conferences and, as long as they have one remaining, the umpire cannot deny it to them. There's no rule that says a conference has to be taken in the early innings or can't be taken in the last inning. It is perfectly legal to use your conferences at any point of the game.

What the umpire can do is ensure that the conference does not last an inordinate amount of time. Give the coach about 15 seconds, then head out to the mound to break it up. Also, remind the coach to hustle on and off the field.

- By rule, pitchers have 20 seconds to pitch once they receive the ball.

The umpire cannot force the pitcher to pitch in less than the time allotted by the rules. The pitcher may legally use every single one of her 20 seconds to pitch- whether it is the first inning or the last.

- Batters have 10 seconds to position themselves in the batter's box once instructed to do so by the umpire.

Same as with the pitcher taking the full 20 seconds, the batter can take the full 10 seconds provided by the rules. The rules also require the batter to keep one foot in the batter's box in many circumstances and the umpire can enforce that.

Some of the other stalling techniques you might see are outside the rules and the umpire should address those. Faking an injury, excessive shoe tying, asking for repeated time outs for no good reason, numerous equipment problems or batters asking to get a new bat should be addressed.

The rules do allow the umpire to declare a forfeit if a team uses tactics to obviously delay or hasten the game. This should only be used as a last resort, after issuing a warning to the offending team. If a team stalls outside of the legal methods, and it is done with the obvious intent to disadvantage the other team, the umpire should address it on the spot- and do it quickly so you don't waste more time! Let the team know in no uncertain terms that the delays will not be tolerated and that a forfeit will result if the tactics continue.

 

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Couldn't agree more with bretman's point that this is a game designed to be played without a clock. This has been discussed dozens of times on here, and some of the examples above are just ridiculous. Blame the coaches, blame the umpires, blame the kids if you want ... but the real issue is that we have allowed this to evolve and continue to put on and pay to attend tournaments with unreasonable time limits.

 

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True words of wisdom Hitter. I used to be one of the over zealous coaches. Yelling about calls I thought were made against my team only, questioning every pitch, getting the last word when the umpire would say "not another word". Experience has changed me. I have umpired and coached for years. I know as an umpire I miss calls, every umpire knows they miss calls. I know as a coach they miss calls. I also know as a coach that the umpire has the best vantage point to make the call. Umpires are put in rediculous situations. Ideally we would have an umpire at every base. Obviously, thats not going to happen but even if we did, we would find reasons to fuss and complain, i.e. Major League Baseball.

As far as delaying to reach a time limit, I have seen coaches who rush their players on the field to uphold the "integrity of the game". I have also witnessed the so called delays. The way the game is played today with time limits isn't the obective still to try and win the game. Shouldn't a coach do his best to allow his team a victory. Are the stallers really using that much more time, or does it just seem longer because we are losing.

My teams have not won as much as I would like over the past few years. We play hard and we always show up. We have lost alot of close games. I have witnessed my own parents complain of stalling. I just don't see it. The object is to win the game within the rules of play. When there is an "excessive" delay every umpire will ask teams to speed up. When a coach wants to change a pitcher, he has that right. When a coach wants to visit the mound, he has that right, it doesn't matter when it is!

Relax, enjoy the talent that is put on the field. Watch these young ladies grow as players and young adults. Enjoy life!

Amen!

 

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its very simple to me ++SCORE EARLY/SCORE OFTEN..

 

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True words of wisdom Hitter. I used to be one of the over zealous coaches. Yelling about calls I thought were made against my team only, questioning every pitch, getting the last word when the umpire would say "not another word". Experience has changed me. I have umpired and coached for years. I know as an umpire I miss calls, every umpire knows they miss calls. I know as a coach they miss calls. I also know as a coach that the umpire has the best vantage point to make the call. Umpires are put in rediculous situations. Ideally we would have an umpire at every base. Obviously, thats not going to happen but even if we did, we would find reasons to fuss and complain, i.e. Major League Baseball.

As far as delaying to reach a time limit, I have seen coaches who rush their players on the field to uphold the "integrity of the game". I have also witnessed the so called delays. The way the game is played today with time limits isn't the obective still to try and win the game. Shouldn't a coach do his best to allow his team a victory. Are the stallers really using that much more time, or does it just seem longer because we are losing.

My teams have not won as much as I would like over the past few years. We play hard and we always show up. We have lost alot of close games. I have witnessed my own parents complain of stalling. I just don't see it. The object is to win the game within the rules of play. When there is an "excessive" delay every umpire will ask teams to speed up. When a coach wants to change a pitcher, he has that right. When a coach wants to visit the mound, he has that right, it doesn't matter when it is!

Relax, enjoy the talent that is put on the field. Watch these young ladies grow as players and young adults. Enjoy life!

Good Points...But I am talking legitimate Stalling in a ONE Run Game. Teh Umpires should be able to "Light a Fire" Under them. I have played in Slo-Pitch Tourneys where Umpires started calling Balls and strikes with NO Pitches being thrown due to "stalling" (Against he offending team. ). All I am saying is its a Cheap win... If yoy must Manipulate the clock. Sad Sad Sad.

 

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I'm no fan of time limit games. As others have said, I understand the need for time limits, but that doesn't mean I have to like them!

The problem is that when you bastardize the rules by adding a clock to a game designed to be played without one, it creates all sorts of conflicts with how the game is normally played. You get delays and stalling and batters striking out on purpose and runners leaving bases early. And, you get one team or the other on the short end of the stick who isn't going to be happy about it!

Every single sport that uses a clock has pages and pages of rules governing clock management and teams have devised entire strategies to deal with it. A quarterback can take a knee, intentionally down the ball or run out of bounds. In basketball you can spread the offense, work the shot clock or intentionally foul an opponent. Most games designed to be played under a clock offer the teams time outs, of which the duration and frequency are rigidly controlled.

Baseball and softball have none of that. This forces teams- and umpires- to deal with situations that are not governed by any set rules.

Some of the stalling techniques a team might use are perfectly legal and must be allowed. All the umpire can do is make sure the otherwise legal ways to delay the game are not abused. For instance:

- With the time limit approaching, a coach decides to talk to his pitcher.

The rules afford each team a set number of charged conferences and, as long as they have one remaining, the umpire cannot deny it to them. There's no rule that says a conference has to be taken in the early innings or can't be taken in the last inning. It is perfectly legal to use your conferences at any point of the game.

What the umpire can do is ensure that the conference does not last an inordinate amount of time. Give the coach about 15 seconds, then head out to the mound to break it up. Also, remind the coach to hustle on and off the field.

- By rule, pitchers have 20 seconds to pitch once they receive the ball.

The umpire cannot force the pitcher to pitch in less than the time allotted by the rules. The pitcher may legally use every single one of her 20 seconds to pitch- whether it is the first inning or the last.

- Batters have 10 seconds to position themselves in the batter's box once instructed to do so by the umpire.

Same as with the pitcher taking the full 20 seconds, the batter can take the full 10 seconds provided by the rules. The rules also require the batter to keep one foot in the batter's box in many circumstances and the umpire can enforce that.

Some of the other stalling techniques you might see are outside the rules and the umpire should address those. Faking an injury, excessive shoe tying, asking for repeated time outs for no good reason, numerous equipment problems or batters asking to get a new bat should be addressed.

The rules do allow the umpire to declare a forfeit if a team uses tactics to obviously delay or hasten the game. This should only be used as a last resort, after issuing a warning to the offending team. If a team stalls outside of the legal methods, and it is done with the obvious intent to disadvantage the other team, the umpire should address it on the spot- and do it quickly so you don't waste more time! Let the team know in no uncertain terms that the delays will not be tolerated and that a forfeit will result if the tactics continue.

Bravo Brother !!!

 

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If the time limit is in place teams will use it. Its playing with in the rules.

As to the umpires, they can only do so much. They can inforce the rules as stated not read into or assume anything.

I have seen teams strike out on purpose in order to end an inning so it will not revert back to previous inning.