Umpires! What is your thinking?

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Batter hits ball and the play at first is very, very, very, very close! What is your opinion?

Tie goes to the runner.

There is no such thing as a tie. Therefore......
1) When there is doubt, the batter/runner is safe
2) When there is doubt, the batter/runner is out

I know that umpires are told that the batter must beat the ball to the base in order to be safe.....I'm just talking about the times when you honestly do not know and the call could go either way.


Hippie28 and I have been squabbling over this and I would like to get the umpires involved in the discussion.

Len

 

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It seems a lot of the time if the play made by the defense was exceptional runner is out.
If the play was bobbled or routine, it goes to the runner.

 

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It seems a lot of the time if the play made by the defense was exceptional runner is out.
If the play was bobbled or routine, it goes to the runner.

Agreed, give the call to the player that hustled the most. Nothing like laying out deep in the hole and gunning it to first for the umpire to call "safe". That's a little anti-climactic. Lol.
.

 

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Which coach has argued a previous call?

 

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It seems a lot of the time if the play made by the defense was exceptional runner is out.
If the play was bobbled or routine, it goes to the runner.

If it is so close you have to reward the effort, with out a doubt.

 

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If it is a so called tie then if a runner is on the base she can't be out so if you look at it that way then it could be a tie to bag in turn safe because if runner is on bag they can't be out. I'm not blue but thats my thoughts. I do however agree that if you truly do not know then call an out if D made a good play. If it looks like a clear "tie" then above is my thoughts.

 

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HOLY MOLY......can tell that none of you have ever umpired a baseball/softball game ! There is "NO" tie.....either the ball got there first or the runner got there first ! If I EVER went to an umpire to ask him/her why he/she made that call and was told, "Well I based it on the exceptional play or she bobbled it !"....wow, you all are opening up a HUGE can of worms ! And, YES, I use to be an umpire in high school and college softball before my work schedule took me away from it !

 

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I have called plenty of games but I have to say that I do not have a bionic-laser range finder to tell exactly if the ball beat the runner or the runner beat the ball within a milisecond. In my opinion the ball was there first, or in my opinion the runner beat the throw. When it is all said and done, thats what counts. Its a judgment call and you have to call the close ones and make someone unhappy.

I think the question was just phrased wrong, how do you call the close ones?

I did have an umpire tell me after a game this year that we were going to be moved from behind the plate and on the field to one in each dugout, and a third at the 200 foot marker down the first base line. You know the view is better there.;&

 

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You know the view is better there.;&

I've been sitting with some parents who think that! I get so embarrassed when a parent argues a call.

 

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No matter what the call, first thing you will hear from the side that didn't get the call is "COME ON BLUE! NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!!" (From the parent with the best view on the field of course.) And people wonder why there aren't enough umpires......

It's safe or out, whatever pops in the head at the moment based on what you saw.

 

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HOLY MOLY......can tell that none of you have ever umpired a baseball/softball game ! There is "NO" tie.....either the ball got there first or the runner got there first ! If I EVER went to an umpire to ask him/her why he/she made that call and was told, "Well I based it on the exceptional play or she bobbled it !"....wow, you all are opening up a HUGE can of worms ! And, YES, I use to be an umpire in high school and college softball before my work schedule took me away from it !

I didn't say that was the way it should be called. Just a observation of how the close ones seem to be called in games i have watched lately.

 

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HOLY MOLY......can tell that none of you have ever umpired a baseball/softball game ! There is "NO" tie.....either the ball got there first or the runner got there first ! If I EVER went to an umpire to ask him/her why he/she made that call and was told, "Well I based it on the exceptional play or she bobbled it !"....wow, you all are opening up a HUGE can of worms ! And, YES, I use to be an umpire in high school and college softball before my work schedule took me away from it !

This is why I wanted umpires' opinions and not parents or coaches opinions.

This is the thread where the discussion started:
http://www.game-ex.com/vb3/showthread.php?t=20716&page=5

The first post about a tie at first base is #163.

If any umpire has enough games under his or her belt, they have witness what "appeared" to be a virtual tie. In the real world we know it wasn't a tie, but to the human eye it appeared to be a dead heat. My contention in this situation is that since the batter/runner did not beat the throw, they are out. The other person's contention was that since the batter/runner and the throw got there simultaneously, give the benefit of the doubt to the runner.

Len

 

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I think with the over-active bats and the advantage the hitter now has with the pitching at 43', I would award (reward) the defense with the out. JMHO

 

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I once asked an umpire this very question several years ago, and I never questioned a call after that.

Question: "With a tie at first base, is the runner safe or out?"
Answer: "There is NO SUCH THING as a tie. The runner MUST BEAT THE THROW to be safe. If they DID tie, the runner obviously didn't beat the throw."

Any umpire delving into the realm of "ties" and "maybes" and "greatest effort" is setting themselves up for a lot of controversy. Just MAKE THE CALL. Anyway, if you look at it as "The runner must BEAT THE THROW", there really isn't any question. I like to think in terms of not penalizing the defense - so in a "technical tie", (which really can't happen ) the runner would be out. It's a judgement call by the umpire anyway, so save yourself some stress and let it go...

 

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I did have an umpire tell me after a game this year that we were going to be moved from behind the plate and on the field to one in each dugout, and a third at the 200 foot marker down the first base line. You know the view is better there.
:lmao::lmao::lmao:

 

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I think with the over-active bats and the advantage the hitter now has with the pitching at 43', I would award (reward) the defense with the out. JMHO

Not everyone pitches from 43ft, and yes the todays bats do add distance and speed to a hit ball if hit correctly, but the original thread was about our ump not able to make a decision at first with a bang/bang play that with the naked eye looked like a tie (which led to the confusion) and with the batter up against 8 fielder and a pitcher (with numerous pitches to her disposal) is at a huge disadvantage until she puts the ball into play now the advantage should be with her and if the ump can't come to a conclusion at first should be awarded a safe call and not automatically given to the defence.

I have spoke with a few umps since battling w/ Lenski over this and they said the game is based on outs and that an ump will call out just to speed the game up.... I gave them my theology... and there reply was that "Umps would not go that indept over a call and that it still falls on speeding up the game.... my reply to them/and those reading this is the defense the only one working hard at this one instance?????? Try telling that to a girl (digging as hard as she can to get down the line and get through the bag) that if the ump can't make a decision, then you are going to be automatically called out because we need to speed the game up.

 

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I have spoke with a few umps since battling w/ Lenski over this and they said the game is based on outs and that an ump will call out just to speed the game up.... I gave them my theology... and there reply was that "Umps would not go that indept over a call and that it still falls on speeding up the game.... my reply to them/and those reading this is the defense the only one working hard at this one instance?????? Try telling that to a girl (digging as hard as she can to get down the line and get through the bag) that if the ump can't make a decision, then you are going to be automatically called out because we need to speed the game up.

Hippie28

An umpire should never call anyone out for the sole purpose of speeding up the game. That almost sounds to me like even if they think a batter/runner was safe by a sliver, they will call them out because of time. I pray to God these umpires used wrongly worded sentences when they replied to you. They should go by what they are taught in school....If the batter/runner was not clearly safe then they are out...nothing more and nothing less, period.

Len

 

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One of the umps said that the game can only progress when outs are made by the defense and called by umpires.... I agreed.... I then asked what are you looking at that makes your decision that a runner is or is not out (force out) he said "that the ball beats the runner to a base and that the defensive player has control of the ball before the runner gets to the base" ,so I quickly add if you can't decide that... Then what is the call safe or out????? He said it would have to be safe because he is basing his determination on wether the ball beat the runner to the base and the other concurred:yahoo:

Now I know this was only 2 that I asked so now I am asking the rest of you Umpires and Coaches to give your definition/thoughts and comments....Please

 

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One of the umps said that the game can only progress when outs are made by the defense and called by umpires.... I agreed.... I then asked what are you looking at that makes your decision that a runner is or is not out (force out) he said "that the ball beats the runner to a base and that the defensive player has control of the ball before the runner gets to the base" ,so I quickly add if you can't decide that... Then what is the call safe or out????? He said it would have to be safe because he is basing his determination on wether the ball beat the runner to the base and the other concurred:yahoo:

Now I know this was only 2 that I asked so now I am asking the rest of you Umpires and Coaches to give your definition/thoughts and comments....Please

See this is what I believe right here. I think if a runner is on a base and its that close that you cant really tell then safe because they are on the bag and if they on the bag how are they out? Ball must beat runner.....now thats just my opinion.

 

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Below is an excerpt from mlb.com from a Q&A with MLB veteran umpire Tim McClelland. The entire article can be found here:

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/umpires/feature.jsp?feature=mcclellandqa



"I am an umpire for Little League. The coach told me that ties go to the runner. I said the batter has to beat the throw to first because there are no such thing as ties. Who is right?-- L.M.F.

McClelland: That is exactly right. There are no ties and there is no rule that says the tie goes to the runner. But the rule book does say that the runner must beat the ball to first base, and so if he doesn't beat the ball, then he is out. So you have to make the decision. That's why umpires are paid the money they are, to make the decision on if he did or if he didn't. The only thing you can do is go by whether or not he beat the ball. If he did, then he is safe."

Score a BIG one for me Hippie:yahoo: This is not a weekend warrior umpire, this is a MLB umpire. It is this man's job to know every rule.....and he gets paid well for knowing them.

Len